ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

SCOTLAND

The Secretary of State was asked-

Consumer Focus

Cathy Jamieson: What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the future provision of services currently provided by Consumer Focus Scotland.

David Mundell: The Government carried out a review of the landscape of consumer protection bodies and will publish a consultation early next year with proposals to streamline and transfer the functions of Consumer Focus Scotland to Citizens Advice Scotland.

Cathy Jamieson: I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that he will be aware of the significant work done by Consumer Focus Scotland and indeed of the very worthy work of citizens rights bureaux in Scotland in upholding citizens' rights. A report published today highlights one trend of serious concern: the number of people approaching citizens advice bureaux regarding employment support allowance has almost doubled in the last 12 months. In the light of the damaging cuts to the welfare budget announced last week and the significant additional pressures it will put on citizens advice bureaux, what discussions have the Minister and Secretary of State had directly with Citizens Advice Scotland regarding the transfer of these functions?

David Mundell: The Scotland Office has been in dialogue with Citizens Advice Scotland-and, indeed, with the Scottish Government-about the services it currently provides and those it will provide if the functions from Consumer Focus Scotland are transferred to it. The hon. Lady makes an important point about the provision of advice, not just about the benefit she mentioned, but about all benefits.

Labour Statistics

Katy Clark: What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on trends in levels of employment in Ayrshire; and if he will make a statement.

Michael Moore: The Government are committed to creating the right conditions in Ayrshire and elsewhere to ensure sustainable economic growth and, with it, employment opportunities.

Katy Clark: I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Has he had the opportunity to look at the Experian report, which has received some coverage in the press over the last few days? It says that, owing to the high dependence on public sector jobs and the poor performance in other sectors of the economy, North Ayrshire will be the part of Scotland that finds it most difficult to recover from the recession. Will he look at that report, consider what impact the loss of public sector jobs will have in North Ayrshire and meet colleagues who represent the area to discuss what needs to be done to protect the economy?

Michael Moore: I have seen the report and I appreciate the challenges faced in North Ayrshire and elsewhere. Our challenge as a Government is to tackle the deficit we inherited from the previous Labour Government, under whom unemployment was rising significantly. All the measures we have announced in the Budget and the spending review are designed to tackle that, but I would be happy to meet the hon. Lady and other colleagues to discuss the situation.

Ann McKechin: The Government have repeatedly stated that they always want to make work pay, but in areas such as North Ayrshire, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) represents, many families that desperately want to work can find only temporary or part-time jobs. The charity Gingerbread reported this week that one third of all jobcentre vacancies are for jobs offering fewer than 16 hours a week, yet the Secretary of State's Government propose to remove working tax credits for all families working between 16 and 24 hours a week. How many hard-working families in Scotland will lose their credit because of this change? Will the right hon. Gentleman stand up and urge the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to abandon this draconian measure?

Michael Moore: I welcome the hon. Lady to her post. She knows the Scotland Office well from her previous position as a Minister. I look forward to working with her on issues where we agree, although we will also have robust exchanges where there is room for disagreement. I am afraid that this issue is one such area. As I said to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) a moment ago, we inherited from the Labour Government the largest deficit in peacetime history-£155,000 million. The measures we announced in the Budget to help reduce corporation tax and the burden of national insurance and now the measures in the comprehensive spending review to invest in energy projects for the future show that we are setting out on our plan to get sustainable employment for the whole of Scotland.

Ann McKechin: I thank the Secretary of State for his initial remarks. I am sure there will be areas where we can work together, but on this issue his answer is certainly disappointing. Yet again his Government admit to taking twice as much from people with families as they do from our banks. His Government now propose a 10% cut in housing benefit entitlement for those on jobseeker's allowance for more than 12 months-regardless of the fact that they have complied with all the rules and looked for work at every opportunity. Most people regard this as no better than a form of punishment. The Secretary of State missed the vote on the VAT rise; is he going to miss this vote, too, or will he now stand up for decency and fairness?

Michael Moore: What matters is for us to have a welfare system that supports those in need, helps them to get back into work, and, when they get back into work, makes work pay. All too rarely have the existing arrangements met those tests. We are determined to support those in need on an ongoing basis, and to ensure that the system is fair to those who need it and fair to those who pay for it.

Local Television Networks

David Cairns: What recent discussions he has had with representatives of the broadcasting industry in Scotland on the Government's plans for local television networks.

Greg Hands: What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the likely effects in Scotland of the implementation of the Government's proposals for local television networks.

David Mundell: Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have met broadcasters to discuss a range of issues. We also have regular exchanges on broadcasting with ministerial colleagues.

David Cairns: Given the inevitable adverse implications for the BBC's programme-making budget of the massive real-terms cut in the licence fee, is it not more important than ever for us to encourage television production from all sources in Scotland? Can the Minister update me on the progress of the plan initiated by the last Government to grant qualifying independent producer status to STV?

David Mundell: I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's interest and expertise in broadcasting in Scotland. In answer to his question, I can tell him that an announcement will be made shortly.

Greg Hands: Local television is popular, and will make a real difference to communities in Scotland. The Minister will be aware that even the Scottish Government's own Scottish Broadcasting Commission has concluded that television should remain a reserved matter. Will the Minister undertake to work with his DCMS colleagues to ensure that any framework resulting from the Shott review takes account of Scotland's specific needs?

David Mundell: I agree with my hon. Friend. It was interesting to note that both the broadcasting commission established by the SNP Government and the Calman commission concluded that broadcasting should remain reserved. Nicholas Shott has visited Scotland, and has met various interested parties in the broadcasting sector there. I am sure that Scotland's particular needs will be taken into account when his final report is issued later this year.

Angus MacNeil: The television channel BBC Alba manages to be both local and national, but its funds are already parsimonious, and it is able to broadcast for only part of the day. May we have a assurance from the Government that its funding-already cut to the marrow-will be defended, and that the process of putting it on to Freeview, which has been delayed still further, will be sorted out soon?

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to learn that I shall visit the offices of BBC Alba during a visit to the Western Isles on 5 November. The Freeview issue is clearly one for the BBC Trust, but I understand that it has not yet made a decision.

Renewable Energy

John Thurso: What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on expenditure on port infrastructure in Scotland for the development of marine renewable energy projects; and if he will make a statement.

Michael Moore: I was delighted to visit my hon. Friend's constituency last month, and to find out more about the plans there for the development of marine renewable energy projects.
	Scottish Ministers can direct Ofgem to pay an amount from the Scottish fossil fuel levy account to the Scottish Consolidated Fund, which could be used for such projects. If Scottish Ministers do that, they will benefit from our arrangements for the devolution of at least £250 million for Scotland from the green investment bank.

John Thurso: I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of the immense potential of the Nigg yard in Easter Ross. Is he also aware that its current owner, KBR, has declined to use it, and is dragging its feet over selling it? Will he make it clear to KBR that a speedy completion is necessary to return the yard to use and create important jobs?

Michael Moore: When we visited Scrabster and other parts of my hon. Friend's constituency, I was impressed by the serious efforts that are already being made to develop marine renewable projects in the far north. I recognise my hon. Friend's concern about the situation at Nigg, and his comments will have been heard by the management team there. It is important for us to secure, across Scotland, as much investment as possible in the new renewables projects. I hope that the Scottish Government will respond positively now that we have ring-fenced money in the green investment bank.

Gordon Banks: What representations has the Secretary of State made on behalf of Scotland for the green investment bank to be located there?

Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman and others are making a strong case for that, and I am certainly interested in working with colleagues in all parts of the House to make the strongest possible case for it as well.

Alan Reid: I am sure that the Secretary of State will be aware of the announcement earlier this week that Danish company Skykon has suspended payments to creditors. Skykon owns a factory in my constituency that makes towers for wind turbines and it was building a new factory. Will he do his best to ensure that that partially completed factory is completed and goes into production, protecting badly needed jobs and producing towers for the wind industry?

Michael Moore: Like my hon. Friend, I regret the announcement that was made. I realise that that will have a huge impact on that community in his constituency. It is important that we get to the bottom of this and understand the reasons behind that, but I hope that, working with the Scottish Government and through any meetings that he and I might have, we will be able to work our way through this.

Tom Greatrex: I ask the Secretary of State to join me in pressing for the green investment bank to be based in Scotland, to take a bit of initiative and to put some urgency and energy into that matter, because, given the level of expertise and knowledge in Scotland, it is the ideal place for the green investment bank to be based.

Michael Moore: First, I am delighted to have the opportunity to welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new responsibilities. Like the shadow Secretary of State, he knows the Scotland Office very well and I look forward to our encounters across the Dispatch Box and to working together where we can. The decision on the location of the green investment bank has still to be taken. His comments, those of his hon. Friends and those of Members on the Government Benches are strongly made, and I will work with everyone to make the best possible case for Scotland.

Universal Credit

John Glen: what discussions he has had with the Department for Work and Pensions on the implementation in Scotland of proposals to establish a universal credit.

David Mundell: The Secretary of State and I have been in contact with Ministers from the Department for Work and Pensions about a number of aspects of welfare reform in relation to Scotland.

John Glen: I thank my right hon. Friend to that reply. Many areas of Scotland, notably Glasgow, have suffered from the previous Government's shameful failure to reform welfare over the past 13 years. Does he agree that, far from fearing the universal credit and the work programme, those areas, particularly Glasgow, will benefit because it will pay to be in work and there will be more help into employment for those who need it?

David Mundell: I do agree with my hon. Friend. Our programme is designed to support those who are in the most need but also to ensure that work always pays.

Brian H Donohoe: On the question of work, or the lack of it, the Minister will have doubtless seen the national publicity around Irvine, because of the demise of the development corporation, created by a previous Conservative Administration. Does he believe that it is now time to bring back the Irvine development corporation?

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is always a strong advocate for interests in his constituency, but he will know that responsibility for that particular one rests with the Scottish Government.

Malcolm Bruce: The Minister will be aware that the pilot scheme for getting people off incapacity benefit and into work is under way in Aberdeen, and it will be a desirable outcome if people can be freed from benefit. May I share with him the experience of a constituent who came to see me this week? He said that he had just successfully got DLA, incapacity benefit and carer's allowance, but it required three separate applications and two medical examinations, which involved two separate doctors being sent from Glasgow to carry out the examinations. Is that not an example of how incompetently inefficient the system currently is?

David Mundell: Yes. The right hon. Gentleman is correct to highlight the inefficiencies of the current system, which is why the coalition Government are committed to the reform of the welfare system. It is an issue that I will draw to the attention of the Minister at the Department for Work and Pensions who will visit Scotland tomorrow.

Referendums

Ian Lucas: if he will discuss with the Deputy Prime Minister the merits of enabling UK-resident Scots living outside Scotland to vote in any future referendums on the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive.

David Mundell: The Government have no plans for a referendum on the relationship between Scotland and the rest the United Kingdom and, as far as I know, neither do the Scottish Government. The franchise for a referendum is normally provided for in the legislation setting the referendum question and rules.

Ian Lucas: I thank the Minister for that reply. My constituent, Mrs Massey, is a Scot and British. Why should she be excluded from any future vote on the arrangements for Scotland within the UK?

David Mundell: I am sure that, like me, the hon. Gentleman will do everything he can to campaign to retain Scotland's place in the United Kingdom, and I see no immediate prospect of any such referendum.

Anne McIntosh: I am an enthusiastic campaigner for British people living abroad obtaining the vote in all elections after they have lived abroad for 25 years. Can my right hon. Friend explain what the Labour Government spent the previous 13 years doing and why they did not implement this policy before the general election?

David Mundell: rose-

Mr Speaker: Order. May I suggest that the Minister's reply should be focused exclusively-and, I hope, briefly-on the policy of the Government rather than on that of the official Opposition?

David Mundell: The Government will have noted my hon. Friend's representations.

Comprehensive Spending Review

Michael Connarty: What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the implications of the mechanisms for calculating the effects of the comprehensive spending review year on year in Scotland.

Michael Moore: The Scottish Government's budget is calculated using the Barnett formula. The Chancellor has set out a decisive plan to reduce the UK's unprecedented deficit and restore confidence in the UK economy. For Scotland, the spending review provides a fair deal in tough times.

Michael Connarty: The Secretary of State has not answered the question. I was asking about the year-on-year calculations. Is it not a fact that his Tory puppet-masters offered the Scottish National party Government a deal whereby there is less of a cut in the first year and more of a cut in future years to help the SNP in its efforts to get re-elected as the Scottish Government? Will the Secretary of State talk about the implications year on year for future years, when Scotland will be punished more than it is being this year?

Michael Moore: May I reassure the hon. Gentleman that his fears about political machinations are ill founded? I can confirm, however, that, in response to a request from the Scottish Government, flexibility was given to transfer some of the in-year savings from the current financial year to future years. It is for the Scottish Government to respond to, and make decisions on, such matters, and they are accountable for the spending choices they will make for the next four years.

Angus Robertson: The UK Government have known for months the social and economic consequences of defence cuts in Scotland, so will the Secretary of State confirm what specific resources were allocated as part of the comprehensive spending review to mitigate the effects of base closures?

Michael Moore: I welcomed the opportunity to meet the hon. Gentleman in Moray last week. I recognise that the decisions taken in the defence review following an overall assessment of Britain's national security needs have not been good for him and his constituents, and I appreciate that there is a lot of concern about the future. I repeat today what I said in Moray: I am happy to work with the hon. Gentleman to ensure we work through the consequences of this.

Angus Robertson: So, one week after the closure announcement, is the Secretary of State confirming to the House today that no specific resources have been put in place and that the UK Government are providing no support on the ground in places such as Moray?

Michael Moore: I am happy to repeat what I made clear to the hon. Gentleman when we were in Moray: we will work with him, the taskforce and others who are interested in the future of the Moray bases to ensure we resolve things as well as possible. May I also assure the hon. Gentleman, particularly since he has raised this issue separately this week, that no decision has been taken on the future of the Tornadoes at RAF Lossiemouth?

Mr Speaker: Order. As usual at this time, far too many private conversations are taking place in the Chamber. That is very unfair on the hon. Member asking the question and the Minister answering it. Let us have a bit of order, therefore.

Higher Education

Sheila Gilmore: What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the implications for cross-border students of the Government's proposals for higher education funding.

David Mundell: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills announced the publication of Lord Browne's report on higher education and student finance on 12 October 2010. The Government plan to publish a White Paper outlining detailed proposals in the winter.

Sheila Gilmore: There are obviously considerable consequences for Scotland in any proposals to reduce the teaching grant because of the proposals on loans. What discussions have taken place about the possibility of large numbers of English students wishing to study in Scotland, to the detriment of Scottish students?

David Mundell: The hon. Lady raises an important point. Her question is one of those posed by Lord Browne's report, and it will need to be addressed through debate and consultation. We intend to publish a White Paper in the winter leading, subject to parliamentary time, to a higher education Bill in autumn 2011.

Election Dates

Mark Menzies: What discussions he has had with the Deputy Prime Minister on whether to hold elections to the Scottish Parliament on the same day as the proposed UK general election in 2015.

David Mundell: The Government have made it clear that they will work with all the devolved Administrations and legislatures to consider the issues raised by the coincidence of elections in 2015.

Mark Menzies: Does the Minister agree that when we get to the 2015 elections the new equal-sized boundaries will ensure a far fairer result than those held under the current set-up?

David Mundell: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend, and I am sure that he will welcome, as I do, the protection of important constituencies in Scotland such as Orkney and Shetland, and the Western Isles.

Russell Brown: I recognise that the Minister has read the Gould report. Is he now saying that he disagrees with its central finding that two ballots on different issues in different systems should not be held on the same date?

David Mundell: I agree with Ron Gould's submission to the Scottish Affairs Committee, in which he said that although he would prefer the referendum on AV and the Scottish elections to be held on different days, he saw no reason why they should not be held on the same day and did not anticipate that causing the same confusion that arose in 2007.

Devolution

Alun Cairns: What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive under the devolution settlement.

Robert Halfon: What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive under the devolution settlement.

Michael Moore: I have discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues, including the relationship between the UK Government and the Scottish Government under the devolution settlement. We will introduce a Scotland Bill in the near future, which will implement our proposals for strengthening and deepening the devolution settlement for Scotland.

Alun Cairns: Does the Secretary of State believe that the public in Scotland recognise the need to tackle the budget deficit? If so, will he condemn the Scottish Executive for manufacturing disagreements with the Westminster Government and encourage them to work constructively with the Scotland Office on tackling the budget deficit?

Michael Moore: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that the settlement for Scotland was better than the Scottish Government anticipated, and it should now be for them to get on with setting out their plans for not only the next year, but the next four years.

Robert Halfon: Does the Secretary of State recognise that residents in my constituency and elsewhere believe that alongside his plans for Scottish devolution, England deserves a fair constitutional settlement, with English votes for English laws?

Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman's passionate case has been heard in a very busy Chamber, but I am concentrating on getting on with the continuation of Scottish devolution.

Jimmy Hood: Will the Secretary of State accept that this would be an excellent subject for discussion in the Scottish Grand Committee? Can he have a word with the Leader of the House, who is sitting two up from him, so that we can immediately initiate the next meeting of that Committee, which has not sat for many a year?

Michael Moore: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his unhesitating campaigning on this issue, but may I gently point out to him that the imminent publication of the Scotland Bill means that there will be more than a little chance to debate these issues?

Pete Wishart: Does the Secretary of State not agree that the relationship between Westminster and the Scottish Government has gone from being one of respect to one of almost total contempt? Why will the UK Government not consult the Scottish Government in advance about very important constitutional issues?

Michael Moore: I am absolutely astounded by the hon. Gentleman's charge because, unlike the previous Government, we have gone out of our way to work with the Scottish Government to ensure that this takes place.  [Interruption.] We cannot get around the fact that there are fundamental disagreements about the way we see the constitutional settlement developing, but I say to him that we have been sharing information and discussing things with his ministerial colleagues in Scotland regularly, and we will continue to do so-I hope that they will engage.

Mr Speaker: Order. There is still far too much noise in the Chamber. I want to hear Mr Frank Doran.

Frank Doran: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State will be aware that-

Mr Speaker: First, we must take Question 12.

Oil and Gas Industries

Frank Doran: When he last had discussions with representatives of the oil and gas industries on the future of that industry in Aberdeen.

David Mundell: Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I meet frequently representatives of the oil and gas industry. The UK Government recognise the ongoing needs of the industry and its commitment to the future of the UK continental shelf.

Frank Doran: I am sorry for that, Mr Speaker, but it is what happens when we do not expect to be called.
	The Secretary of State will be well aware that the oil and gas industry is a global one and that its European headquarters is in my constituency. He will also be aware of the serious problem of skills shortages, and of the fact that the industry depends on the skilled people it can bring in from other countries and on exporting our knowledge. What is he doing to assist with the removal of the cap, which is seriously damaging the oil and gas industry and other industries in this country?

David Mundell: Oil & Gas UK has submitted replies to both consultations run by the Home Office and the Migration Advisory Committee. The consultation responses are now being considered and early outcomes are expected before the end of December. Lin Homer, the UK Border Agency chief executive, met representatives of the oil and gas sector on 9 September.

Robert Smith: I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members' Financial Interests as a shareholder of Shell. May I reinforce to the Minister the concerns in that global industry now that it is so much into the export market? Not only is there the problem of work permits and getting people into this country, but, because of the way we treat people coming to this country, it is more difficult to get skilled people into other countries where we have an export market.

David Mundell: I take the hon. Gentleman's points on board. He will recognise that the potential of the industry has been recognised again this morning with a statement to the House about the potential award of 144 seaward production licences in the 26th oil and gas licensing round.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked-

Engagements

Harriett Baldwin: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 27 October.

David Cameron: I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Corporal David Barnsdale from 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), who died on 19 October. He was a brave and highly skilled member of our armed forces whose service and sacrifice must not be forgotten. Our thoughts must be with his family, his friends and his colleagues.
	This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

Harriett Baldwin: May I associate myself with the condolences expressed by my right hon. Friend?
	Does the Prime Minister agree that yesterday's excellent growth numbers show that the private sector is growing and will create the jobs that my constituents need?  [ Interruption. ]

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The growth figures yesterday were twice as good as market expectation. Of course, Opposition Members do not like good news, but they should celebrate it when it comes. This was strong growth, largely driven by the private sector, and it was accompanied by the Standard & Poor's agency saying that we should no longer be in the danger zone for our credit rating, which is welcome news. Opposition Members who are waiting for a double dip have had a bit of double depression, but I am sure that we will get lots of questions about the economy this morning.

Edward Miliband: May I start by joining the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Corporal David Barnsdale from 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal)? He died serving his country; we honour his memory and send the deepest of condolences to his family.
	There are reports this morning that the Government are reconsidering aspects of their housing benefit reforms. Are they?

David Cameron: No, we are bringing forward our plans for housing benefit reform. Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman why we are doing that. Housing benefit for working-age people over the last five years has gone up by 50%. This is a budget that is completely out of control. The proposals we are bringing forward are difficult, but they need to be done, not least because we want to make sure that we protect the schools budget. We want to make sure that we protect the NHS budget. That is why we are taking difficult decisions about welfare and I hope that he will be able to tell us this morning whether he is going to support them.

Edward Miliband: I thank the Prime Minister for that answer. Let me get complete clarity from him. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is reported as saying that the Government are "open to suggestions" on the issue of housing benefit. Is the Prime Minister saying that all the aspects of housing benefit reform are fixed and are not going to change?

David Cameron: We are going forward with all the proposals that we put in the spending review and in the Budget. I am sure that we would all love some suggestions from the right hon. Gentleman.

Edward Miliband: This is Prime Minister's questions-the clue is in the title. He is supposed to answer the questions. I have a specific question for him on one aspect of the housing benefit changes. The plan is to cut by 10% the housing benefit-the help with rent-that someone receives after they have been out of work for a year, even as they have been searching for work. Does the Prime Minister think that that is fair?

David Cameron: These are difficult changes, but I think that they are right. Everyone on jobseeker's allowance is expected to work, and everyone knows that there is a problem when people claim jobseeker's allowance and maximum housing benefit for long periods of time, which creates a serious disincentive to work. That is why we are making this change, and that is why it is right.
	The key change that we are looking at is the £20,000 cap on maximum housing benefit claims. Is the right hon. Gentleman really saying- [ Interruption. ] I am answering the question. I know that Labour Members do not like the answer that we are sticking to our plans, but we are sticking to our plans. The point that everyone in this House must consider is whether we are happy to go on paying housing benefit of £30,000, £40,000 or £50,000. Our constituents are working hard to give benefits to other people to live in homes that they themselves cannot dream of, and I do not think that is fair.

Edward Miliband: The whole House has heard that the Prime Minister has dug himself in on the proposal to cut by 10% the help that people receive with rent after they have been out of work for a year. I ask him, because he will have obviously thought about this, what advice he would give to a family who are seeing 10% of their income from housing benefit being taken away. What advice would he give them, when they are seeing such a large cut in their income, on how they should make ends meet?

David Cameron: In the Work programme, we will have the best and biggest programme to help those people back into work. It will not just be the state doing it; we are going to get training companies and voluntary bodies to help those people into work. I know that the right hon. Gentleman likes figures, so let me give him the figures for London. There are 37,390 people who have been on jobseeker's allowance for more than a year, and those people would be affected by this change-I accept that; it is difficult. Every month, there are 30,000 new vacancies in London, which makes 400,000 vacancies a year. We want to get those people back into work. What does he want to do?

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister is about to make 500,000 people redundant as a result of the cuts announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is clear that his policy on housing benefit is a complete shambles. He has talked about London, but in London alone councils are saying that 82,000 people will lose their homes-they are already booking the bed-and-breakfast accommodation. How many people does he think will lose their homes as a result of that policy?

David Cameron: If we are prepared to pay-as we are-£20,000 in housing benefit, there is no reason why anyone should be left without a home. The Leader of the Opposition has talked about economic policy and cuts, and we now know from the Labour party's own memorandum what its cuts would be. This is not the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Government or the Conservative party; this is a Labour memorandum. It said that the cuts- [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the Prime Minister. Members must remain calm-if they are not serene, then they must at any rate be calm at all times. We must hear the Prime Minister.

David Cameron: The people responsible for making the mess should be quiet when they are told how it will be cleared up. The Labour memorandum states that the cuts implied by its spending plans would have been £44 billion in 2014-15. Those are the Labour party's cuts, which we are having to implement. I was always told that if you have got nothing to say, it is better not to say it.

Edward Miliband: We can see the faces on the Liberal Democrat Benches. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) has described that policy as "harsh and draconian". No wonder he looks glum. Then we have glummer, the Deputy Prime Minister-it is no wonder that he is back on the fags. Is not the truth that the Prime Minister just does not get it? He is out of touch. Other people will pay the price for his cuts. Is it not time that he thought again on housing benefit?

David Cameron: We all had the chance to read about it in  The Times this morning-the advice to the Leader of the Opposition:
	"It's important to have a cheer line that goes down well in the chamber."
	You have to have something that
	"can be clipped easily by the broadcasters",
	and:
	"It is important to get to your feet looking as if you are seizing on something new."
	The right hon. Gentleman has a plan for Prime Minister's questions, but he has no plan for the economy, no plan for the debt and no plan for the mess Labour made-absolutely nothing worth while to say. That is it.

Christopher Pincher: Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Ocado on creating 2,000 much-needed new jobs on the edge of Tamworth? While he is at it, will he congratulate the chief executive, Tim Steiner, on making it clear that he supports the difficult decisions that the Government are making to fix our finances and promote growth-decisions that the Labour party flunked?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Business leaders in Britain who are going to create the jobs that will employ thousands of people in our country support what the Government are doing and they want us to follow it through. I am happy to congratulate the person running Ocado, not least because I am one of its customers.

David Blunkett: The Prime Minister sets great store by devolving decision making to ordinary people. That already exists, of course, with the Welsh Assembly-population 3 million and devolved budget of £14.5 billion -and the Scottish Parliament, with a population of 5 million and, even after the cuts, a budget, through the block grant, of £27.3 billion. Using the formula applied to Wales, the 5.2 million people of Yorkshire would be entitled to a devolved budget of £24 billion. Can he think of one single reason why the people of Yorkshire should not determine their own priorities and, mischievously, one reason why they should not have their own white rose Parliament?

David Cameron: I did not know that the right hon. Gentleman, for whom I have considerable respect, was making these arguments all through the past 13 years. This is a revelation. We are saying to councils in Yorkshire and up and down the country, "We're getting rid of the ring-fences and giving you the power to spend your money in the way that you choose." We have got rid of the bossy, centralising, interfering approach that I am afraid he was rather part of.

Tessa Munt: Is the Prime Minister aware that more than 420 people died in Somerset last winter from causes related to cold and poor living conditions? Will he join me in supporting a local charity, the Somerset Community Foundation, which has a surviving winter appeal whereby all those who can forgo all or part of their winter fuel payment can donate the money for redistribution to those for whom it is not nearly enough?

David Cameron: I will certainly join the hon. Lady in congratulating the charity on the work it does. It sounds absolutely essential. I know that she will welcome, as I did, the decision by the Chancellor in the spending statement that cold weather payments would be put on the higher level permanently, not just before an election.

Eric Illsley: Yorkshire Forward, the Yorkshire regional development agency, owns assets in my constituency in Barnsley that are crucial for a major redevelopment programme in the town centre. Will the Prime Minister look urgently at ensuring that the ownership of those assets is transferred from Yorkshire Forward to the local authority so that the programme can go ahead? Could that transfer be facilitated before the body's abolition in 2012?

David Cameron: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The transition from regional development agencies to the new local enterprise partnerships has to be handled carefully, ensuring that such assets are put to good use. So far, the proposals for local enterprise partnerships that are coming in are extremely encouraging and will lead to more of what the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) talked about-more control locally rather than in distant regions that people do not identify with.

Andrew Turner: It is claimed that the EU will need a new treaty to legitimise money going to Greece. What is the Prime Minister's response?

David Cameron: The argument being put forward, particularly by the Germans, is that a new treaty clause is needed to put the eurozone on a stronger footing. Clearly, from our point of view, we are not in the euro and we are not planning to join the euro, so any treaty change would not apply to us-just as, in terms of the new rules on the stability and funding mechanism, we have always had a carve-out from them. We shall be discussing that at the European Council this week.
	The greatest priority for Britain should be to fight very hard to get the EU budget under control. It is completely unacceptable, at a time when we are making tough budget decisions here, that we are seeing spending rise consistently in the European Union. I think that is wrong and I shall be doing everything I can to try to sort out the budget for next year, and also to look at the future financing of the European Union, where we want to see strict controls. That should be our priority.

Kate Hoey: The Prime Minister must realise that the British public are facing cuts in services and in their livelihoods. They do not want to see a single penny more given to the EU. In fact, they would like to see brought back some of the money that was given away, unfortunately, by our Prime Minister. Will this Prime Minister please ensure that when he goes into battle for our money, he does not-as happens to many leaders when they are involved in that bloated bureaucracy-roll over? Will he promise that if the EU demands that money, we will just say, "Sorry, we're not paying"?

David Cameron: As ever, the hon. Lady talks a good deal of sense. It is worth recalling that since Margaret Thatcher won that rebate at Fontainebleau it has saved Britain £88 billion. That is what tough negotiation achieved. The European Parliament has insisted on a higher budget than the one set by the Council, so the first thing we have to do is to say that is not acceptable, and build a majority on the Council to get the budget down again. It pains me to say this to the hon. Lady, but we would be assisted if Labour MEPs did not keep voting for higher budgets, which is exactly what they did this week.

Andrew Bingham: Last year, the Prime Minister saw how High Peak borough council, through a pioneering alliance with Staffordshire Moorlands, had delivered efficiency savings of almost £2.4 million over the past two years. Will he assure the House that he will strive to support councils such as High Peak, which have sought to deliver better value for money and ensure that local people benefit as a result?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. My council does exactly the same thing: it shares a chief executive, and soon more of the management team, with a neighbouring council. All councils can look at that. Frankly, it is not just councils-police forces and other organisations can look at shared services to drive down costs, so that we make sure we focus on the front line. Those are some of the reforms we need, to make sure that at a time of tight budgets we keep the good services we want.

Angus Robertson: In a few weeks' time, the Prime Minister will decide whether he will close RAF Lossiemouth, in addition to closing RAF Kinloss, which would lead to the biggest loss of jobs in Scotland since the Tories closed manufacturing industry in the 1980s. As a consequence, that would mean that Scotland would have fewer service personnel, fewer military bases, aircraft, vessels and Army battalions and less defence spending than all our independent Scandinavian neighbours of comparable size. Will the Prime Minister explain why he is concentrating defence spending in the south and cutting defence spending disproportionately in Scotland?

David Cameron: We are going ahead with the aircraft carriers, which are being built in Scotland. I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that if we had an independent Scotland, he would not be flying planes but flying by the seat of his pants.

Julian Huppert: Can the Prime Minister reassure the House that the Government have no plans to revive Labour's intercept modernisation programme, whether in name or in function, and that he remains fully committed to the pledge in the coalition agreement to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties and to roll back state intrusion?

David Cameron: I would argue that we have made good progress on rolling back state intrusion in terms of getting rid of ID cards and in terms of the right to enter a person's home. We are not considering a central Government database to store all communications information, and we shall be working with the Information Commissioner's Office on anything we do in that area.

Paul Goggins: Ending child trust funds will close off a route for children in care to build up a modest nest egg, with which they could start their future life as adults. Will the Prime Minister ask his Treasury colleagues to work with me and others to devise an affordable alternative that will give looked after-children the prospect of an asset they can rely on?

David Cameron: I am very happy to ask my colleagues to work with the right hon. Gentleman because we all want to see saving encouraged, but I am afraid that when it came to the child trust fund, we had to take a difficult decision, which was that that was £500 million we needed to save. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I sat on the Committee considering the Bill that introduced child trust funds, but we have to take some difficult decisions on spending, and that was one of them. Can we look at alternative ways of encouraging saving? Yes, we can. We are happy to work with the right hon. Gentleman.

David Rutley: I know the Prime Minister is aware that last week's decision to cancel the Nimrod programme will lead to the early closure of the BAE Systems Woodford site near Macclesfield. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is now an important priority for the Ministry of Defence to work closely with BAE to ensure that the dedicated and highly skilled staff get the best possible support for both retraining and redeployment?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The MOD should work closely with BAE and with his constituents, who have worked extremely hard over many years to produce that equipment, to make sure there is a strong future. We have had to make difficult decisions in the defence review, and we have made the difficult decision about Nimrod, but in terms of BAE as a whole, we will be spending £17 billion with that company between now and 2015 on a range of projects, including the A400M. But my hon. Friend is right-we should make sure that we help those people to find new jobs.

Luciana Berger: Video games development is a highly skilled, low-carbon creative industry which provides more than 600 jobs in my constituency and is important for the north-west as a whole. Before the election, all three main parties pledged to introduce a video games tax relief so that we can compete internationally on a level playing field. Why have the Government reneged on that promise?

David Cameron: We had to make difficult decisions about tax relief- [Interruption.] Opposition Members groan. Can we think of one thing they will support to get the deficit down? I cannot think of a single thing. We have to take difficult decisions, and I am afraid that that tax relief, which was not particularly successful or well targeted, must go. Those are the difficult decisions that we have to take.

Rehman Chishti: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the Government have no plans at all to build an airport in the Thames estuary, or in Medway or Kent?

David Cameron: The Department for Transport has no plans for a new airport in the Thames estuary or in any other part of Medway or Kent and, as my hon. Friend knows, we have scrapped the plan to build a third runway at Heathrow.

Siobhain McDonagh: As a former PR man, does the Prime Minister agree that no matter how much Bell Pottinger tries to spin the Sri Lankan Government, the demands for an international independent war crimes tribunal intensify as more evidence of alleged assassination and civil rights abuses comes out?

David Cameron: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. We need to see an independent investigation of what happened. Everyone has read the papers and seen the TV footage, but we need an independent investigation to work out whether what she suggests is right.

Mark Pawsey: The development of land without planning permission for use as Gypsy and Traveller sites is of concern to many communities, including the villages of Barnacle and Bulkington in my constituency, where local residents have had to put up with illegal developments on their doorstep, but they are pleased with the proposals of the coalition Government to give additional powers to local authorities to deal with the matter. Will the Prime Minister acknowledge the wish of my constituents to see those powers made available at the earliest opportunity?

David Cameron: As my hon. Friend probably knows, we will bring forward the localism Bill. It is important, as I have said before, that everyone obeys the law of the land, including that on planning. That should apply to Gypsies and Travellers as well. In the localism Bill we will make sure that it is worth while for local authorities to go ahead with development-they should see a benefit when houses are built, whereas at present there is so little benefit for local areas in getting businesses in and getting homes built. There should be a benefit where they make available sites for Gypsies and Travellers, but that should not be done on the basis of lawbreaking, which it all too often is at present.

Emma Reynolds: In July the Education Secretary promised that Wolverhampton's Building Schools for the Future programme would be unaffected by cuts. Can the Prime Minister confirm that the much needed refurbishment of secondary schools across the city will go ahead as planned, and not suffer devastating cuts of 40%?

David Cameron: I am afraid that what happened was that the previous Government set out 50% cuts- [Interruption.] I know the Opposition do not like hearing it. They set out 50% cuts in capital spending, but did not tell us where one penny piece was going to come from. That is what happened. We have had to scrap the unaffordable and badly put forward Building Schools for the Future programme, but in the spending plans for the next four years are £15 billion additional capital for school building, so there are plenty of opportunities for additional school building, and not just secondary schools, but primary schools as well. That is what we will be making available.

Neil Carmichael: In my constituency, Stroud college, a further education college, has launched an engineering centre to encourage training and apprenticeships. Does the Prime Minister agree that in the light of the encouraging economic figures, such programmes should be supported by business?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are making sure that money goes into FE colleges. That is essential for the skills agenda of the future, and we want to free up those colleges to have more agreements with business. In the past they were over-regulated in respect of the courses they could run and the qualifications they could offer. We want to see much greater collaboration between FE colleges so that we get the skills that we actually need.

Tom Harris: Until 18 months before the general election, the Prime Minister supported Labour's spending plans. At what point did he decide to rewrite history?

David Cameron: We realised that the spending plans were unaffordable, and we came off them. We went into the last election promising to make spending reductions. It needed to be done, and I remember sitting where the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) is, week after week, asking the former Prime Minister, "Aren't you really saying there are going to be cuts?", and he said, "No, no cuts. There won't be any cuts." Do you remember? It happened week after week. Now we have the evidence from Labour's own memo. It was planning £44 billion in cuts, and not a word about it to anyone. That is thoroughly dishonest.

Sajid Javid: Yesterday, the international credit rating agency Standard & Poor's said something that would make Opposition Members quite upset. It upgraded our nation's credit outlook from negative to stable, but will the Prime Minister also heed its warning that that credit rating upgrade would be at risk if, in its own words,
	"against our expectations the coalition's commitment to fiscal consolidation faltered

David Cameron: That is an absolutely vital point. It was this Government's changes that took the British economy out of the danger zone, and since the election we have seen interest rates coming down in Britain, whereas in some other countries they have been going up. Why? Because they have not taken the necessary action to get their budget and their deficit under control. What we are now seeing is businesses throughout the world recognising that this is a great country to invest in, because we are sorting out the mess that we inherited.

Robert Flello: The Prime Minister will be aware that by 7 July the Education Secretary would have already understood the financial situation and the "state of the books", as the Prime Minister is so keen to keep stating, so why on 7 July, in this House, did the Education Secretary say:
	"One announcement that I was able to make on Monday was that Stoke-on-Trent, as a local authority that has reached financial close, will see all the schools under Building Schools for the Future rebuilt"?-[ Official Report, 7 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 490.]
	Is there some confusion between the Prime Minister and the Education Secretary?

David Cameron: We were left a complete mess in terms of Building Schools for the Future. Here was a programme that took up three years and hundreds of millions of pounds before a single brick was laid. The cost of building those schools was twice what it should have been, so we have scrapped that programme and made available £15 billion for the next four years. That means that school building will be higher under this Government than it was under the Labour Government starting in 1997.

Mary Creagh: Rubbish!

David Cameron: Yes, it will be. Go and check the figures.

Edward Balls: indicated dissent.

David Cameron: Do your maths. You'll find out that's the case.

Alun Cairns: Figures published this week show that four fifths of economic growth is coming from the private sector. Does the Prime Minister accept that it is wrong to say that public spending is propping up economic development? Does he further recognise that more work needs to be done in supporting the private sector throughout the United Kingdom?

David Cameron: This is the news that the Opposition do not want to hear. Four fifths of that growth was coming from the private sector, and that is an encouraging sign that we should celebrate rather than look miserable about.

Sharon Hodgson: The Prime Minister talks of difficult decisions, and last week the Chancellor said that government is about choices. The Opposition agree, but we would have made different choices-

Hon. Members: What?

Mr Speaker: Order.

Sharon Hodgson: For instance, we would have chosen to tax the bankers more heavily in order to avoid the shameful attack yesterday on women and children in the form of the abolition of the child trust fund and the health in pregnancy grant. Does the Prime Minister agree with his Chancellor's choices continually to penalise women and children in that way?
	Please, Mr Speaker -

Hon. Members: Speech!

Mr Speaker: Order.

Sharon Hodgson: Please, Mr Speaker, will you ask the Prime Minister not continually to blame the Opposition? He is in government now-

Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful. I call the Prime Minister to reply.

David Cameron: I am afraid to say that the choice the Opposition have made is not to make any choices-absolutely none at all. The hon. Lady mentions the importance of taxing the banks, but the point I would make is that we introduced a bank levy-within six months of taking office, that has been sorted out. The Opposition had 13 years. The Leader of the Opposition either sat in the Treasury, as one of the chief economic advisers, or sat in the Government, and they did absolutely nothing to introduce that bank levy. Was he arguing for it across the Cabinet table? We have no idea. It did not happen; we have done it. We are asking the banks to pay a fair amount. What we should be focusing on is getting the revenue out of banks so that they contribute to rebuilding our country after, frankly, the mess it was left in.

Mr Speaker: I call Bob Russell. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear!"] Order. I want to hear Mr Russell too.

Bob Russell: Earlier the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition had fun and games over housing benefit cuts. This is not a laughing matter for the thousands of children who could well become homeless. I am confident that this was an unintended consequence because the cost of putting children in bed-and-breakfast accommodation is greater than housing benefit. Will the Prime Minister look at this again, please?

David Cameron: I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman; this is an incredibly serious issue. We have a housing benefit bill that is out of control-up 50% over the past five years for working-age adults. The key change that we are suggesting is a cap of £20,000-let me repeat that: £20,000-that a family can get for their rent. The fact is that there will be many people working in Colchester, Doncaster or west Oxfordshire who are paying their taxes and who could not dream of living in a house that cost £20,000 to rent each year. It is an issue of fairness that we tackle this budget, get it under control, and do not ask hard-working people to support benefit levels to get things they simply could not have themselves.

Speaker's Statement

Mr Speaker: I have a short statement to make. Yesterday a point of order was raised by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) about the title of his proposed early-day motion. The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means, who was in the Chair, undertook to look into the matter. I am allowing the proposed motion on the Order Paper with an amended title, but I want to remind the House of the right way of pursuing such matters. If any Member is not content with the advice given by the Table Office, he or she should first discuss the matter directly with the Principal Clerk of the Table Office. If still dissatisfied, the Member can ask for it to be referred to me. I would not expect such an issue to be raised on the Floor of the House until I had had the opportunity to consider the matter and all these steps had been exhausted.

Economic Governance (EU)

William Cash: (Urgent Question): I have an urgent question for the Prime Minister, which is being answered in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to what negotiating position the Government intend to adopt on the conclusion of the taskforce on strengthening economic governance in the European Union that was presented to the European Council on 21 October with the claim that the endorsement- [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. First, I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly. Secondly, may I say to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who has 26 years' experience in the House, that this is not the point at which he is supposed to dilate? He will have his opportunity. He has said what the substance of the matter is, and we look forward to the Minister responding.

William Cash: rose-

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not get too excited: he will have his opportunity. I have granted him his chance, and he should not worry: we will come to him in due course.

Mark Hoban: I am very grateful for the opportunity to update the House on the conclusion of the taskforce on strengthening the economic governance of the European Union, and to report on the UK's position on the taskforce. In particular, I wish to restate that the UK is exempt from the current and future sanctions regime.
	Heads of State and Heads of Government commissioned the President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, to produce a report on EU economic governance and report back to the October Economic Council. Mr Van Rompuy chaired a taskforce meeting consisting of EU Finance Ministers, and the Chancellor represented the UK on the taskforce. The report has been agreed by the taskforce, and the European Council is expected to endorse it tomorrow. Copies of the report, along with the Chancellor's submission to the taskforce, have been placed in the Library of the House this morning.
	The report concludes that the EU should take steps to reinforce fiscal discipline and that the euro area in particular must face tougher surveillance of its fiscal policies, with sanctions for non-compliance with the pact where appropriate. It also recommends measures to improve EU-level co-ordination of macro-economic policies. That will ensure that any harmful macro-economic imbalances between member states can be identified and corrective action taken. Finally, the report notes that there should be a permanent crisis resolution mechanism for the euro area. The UK supports its conclusions.
	A strong and stable euro area is firmly in the UK's own economic interests, given the high level of UK exports to those countries and our close economic ties. In the years before the crisis, fiscal discipline was absent, and not just in states in the eurozone. High levels of debt have exacerbated the problems that some member states face during the economic downturn. The taskforce recommends that there should be greater focus on member states' public debt levels in future, and the Government agree with that approach.
	I am pleased to note that the report explicitly states that sanctions cannot be applied to the UK under the stability and growth pact. Domestic fiscal frameworks play a crucial role in ensuring that member states act responsibly. EU surveillance is useful, but as the House knows, national Parliaments and national institutions must hold Governments to account for their economic and budgetary policies.
	Let us be absolutely clear: yes, we want to see a strong and stable eurozone. That is in our interests just as much as those of our neighbours. The UK has led the way on economic governance. Multi-year budgets and independent statistics and forecasting have already been introduced, and we have a clear fiscal mandate to eliminate our structural deficit. We are leading the eurozone, and our high standards have already received international endorsement. We will examine any proposals to help the eurozone overcome its problems.
	However, as the Prime Minister has just said, we will not agree to any changes to EU treaties that move more powers from this country to the EU. The UK's exemption from the sanctions proposal will be explicit, and there will be no shift of sovereignty from Westminster to Brussels. The report makes that clear, agreeing that
	"strengthened enforcement measures need to be implemented for all EU Member States, except the UK as a consequence of Protocol 15 of the Treaty".
	While we are looking at problems in the EU, I should like to say that we have serious concerns about the proposed size of the 2011 EU budget. I was shocked to see that on the day of the spending review, the vast majority of Labour MEPs voted against a freeze in the EU budget. When countries across Europe are taking tough decisions to put their public finances in order, it would be wrong-unjust, even-to have a 6% rise in next year's EU budget, as has been suggested. We cannot accept that and will fight it hard. We are protecting British interests in the EU and doing what is right for our country and our people, and the Prime Minister will update the House next week.

William Cash: I am most grateful. Unfortunately, the explanation that we have just heard from the Minister does not answer all the questions that arise in this matter. In particular, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was on the taskforce, and the Council's recommendation is that these moves should strengthen economic governance
	"in the EU and the euro area",
	in other words not excluding the UK,
	"and can be implemented within the existing Treaties."
	I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing, as I suggested, that he should place in the Library a copy of the taskforce report and the Chancellor's submission to the taskforce on 9 July, so that everybody can read them.
	The point remains that the six regulations and directives that the European Scrutiny Committee will consider this afternoon are still on the table. Mr Van Rompuy indicated yesterday at a meeting of COSAC-the chairmen of European scrutiny committees-which I attended, that there are uncertainties about the legal position. I think I am getting his words correct and that he said that the situation did not totally respect all the traditional rules of the European Union. Mr Van Rompuy also called for agreement because, he said, people are our citizens and not just voters.
	Given that there are now six legislative proposals-it is claimed that they are based on the existing treaty, but we cannot assume that they are-and that the ESC will consider them today, and that they appear to carry forward in part the Van Rompuy recommendations, what requires a new treaty?
	The treaty will affect the UK and our sovereign Parliament in respect of its control over UK fiscal policy, tax and economic governance, including the question of the rebate. We are glad to hear that the Government reject the increase proposed by the European Parliament, but will the Minister reply to this simple question: will the Government veto the treaty, and if not, will they guarantee that, in accordance with the wishes of the voters in the United Kingdom, we have a referendum on that issue?

Mark Hoban: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising those points. May I just advise him that the final meeting of the taskforce took place on 18 October? I attended that taskforce, as did my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. We ensured that the language in the taskforce report guaranteed that sanctions would not apply to the UK. Paragraph 18 of the taskforce report refers
	"to the specific situation of the UK in relation to Protocol 15 of the Treaties."
	In addition, paragraph 4 states that the measures set out in the taskforce report can be implemented through
	"EU secondary legislation...within the existing legal framework of the European Union",
	so nothing in the report requires a treaty change. I am aware that France and Germany have suggested that there may be treaty changes, but we have yet to see the details of such proposals, which would be made to the European Council at the weekend.

Christopher Leslie: Will the Minister explain why the Prime Minister needs a further week before he updates the House on those matters? Could that be because he has yet to figure out exactly what the Government's position is? Surely after looking at those negotiations, he recognises that this is an embarrassing position for the Government to be in, because the coalition's policy on new European initiatives as they are introduced is far from clear.
	We are still none the wiser, even though this issue was supposed to be debated today. It remains under "Future Business" on the Order Paper under a motion tabled by the Minister, which proposes that the House
	"supports the Government's approach to improving the functioning of the eurozone and reinforcing economic stability across the EU."
	If the Government are asking us to support their approach, could the Minister tell us what his policy is? It is clear to the House that one lesson we need to learn from the financial crisis is the need for better co-operation between Governments at European and global-G20-level, obviously to ensure that we address the imbalances in the worldwide economy that were the root cause of the crisis.
	Of course, the euro area needs to sort out its own difficulties. We have supported eurozone countries in that respect in the past while making it clear that the UK taxpayer cannot be expected to bear the burden, but does the Minister agree that our focus in this country needs to be on jobs, housing and growth, not further rounds of navel-gazing on European governance?
	If the Government were regarded as a serious player in Europe, they would have led and not followed these developments over the weekend. There are several reports from various quarters about a set of different policy outcomes-the President of the EU says one thing, and the French President and German Chancellor look set to propose changes to the treaty-but where was the Prime Minister during those conversations?
	The Government are quite clearly too scared to talk even to some of their own Back Benchers on that question, but has the Prime Minister spoken to the Deputy Prime Minister about these matters? Whatever the Minister says, there are three wings to the coalition: half of the Conservative party want to leave the EU, the Lib Dems want to go head first into the euro, and the rump of the Government, represented by the Minister, are left straddling those two positions-they are the only ones with nothing to say. Is it not clear that the Prime Minister is isolated within his own coalition? It is no wonder that he is isolated in Europe.

Mark Hoban: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman has been absent from the House for some time, and he is a little rusty on some of these things, but I am sure that he will recollect that the practice followed by previous Prime Ministers was to report back to the House on the Monday after a European Council, not before. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make the statement that would be customarily expected of him.
	It is important to ensure that we learn the lessons from the financial crisis. It was clear in the run-up to that crisis that fiscal discipline was lax not just in the euro area, but in the UK and other states. We have led the way in this debate by introducing the Office for Budget Responsibility, with a clear fiscal mandate for eliminating the structural deficit by 2014-15. The fact that we have led the debate is recognised by international bodies such as the OECD, the International Monetary Fund and others. We have set our mark on the debate in Europe, which is the right thing to do. It is right that other member states should achieve the same high standards of fiscal discipline that we do. We are leading the debate in Europe, not following it. The previous Government were silent on that, so what is the Opposition's position now?

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Speaker: Order. I would remind the House that if I am to accommodate a reasonable number of colleagues within the very limited time frame available, brevity in both questions and answers is essential.

Peter Lilley: Can the Minister confirm that even if the proposed treaty concerns only and exclusively the member states of the eurozone, it would still require the support of the British Government to go ahead? Can he assure me that that support will not be given without obtaining concessions in return, such as the return of powers to this country that were unnecessarily given? Can he assure me that we will not give that support without demanding a price? This is the ideal opportunity to obtain that price.

Mark Hoban: My right hon. Friend makes an important point, but I would point out to him that, at the moment, there are no proposed treaty changes on the table. That may happen at the European Council next weekend, and we should respond to those treaty changes as they arise. However, I go back to the comments that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made: we will not agree to any changes to EU treaties that move more powers from this country to the EU.

Jack Straw: The Minister says that there are no treaty changes on the table. Theoretically that is true, but he must be aware that in the statement issued after the meeting between Chancellor Merkel and President Sarkozy last week in Deauville, they made it explicit that they intended to put forward treaty changes and that the ambition of those changes would extend beyond simply the eurozone, which will have clear implications for the United Kingdom. In that case, will the Minister re-emphasise his clear statement-which I welcome-that the United Kingdom will not contemplate treaty changes that interfere with the right of the British Government and of this House to determine our own economic policy, including our own exchange rate policy?

Mark Hoban: Indeed, that is why we have secured a clear and explicit exclusion in the report from the Van Rompuy taskforce-an exclusion based on the Lisbon treaty, but also based on the opt-out that we secured from the Maastricht treaty-so that the sanctions do not apply to the UK. As I have said, at the moment there are no detailed treaty changes on the table. We will have to wait and see what the French and Germans put forward at the weekend.

Bernard Jenkin: May I remind my hon. Friend that those of us who opposed the formation of the euro in principle warned that it would be a disaster, and that we have been vindicated by events? May I warn him now that the Government's aspiration somehow to assist in creating a stable and strong euro area will be a vain attempt? The Government had better plan for the continuing disaster of a currency without a state, which is bound to be unstable in the long term.

Mark Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important point. There are many sound arguments against the euro, and that is why we have ruled out joining it. However, it does us no favours to see a weak and unstable eurozone. It is important for eurozone countries to have strong fiscal discipline to ensure stability. The taskforce introduces a mechanism for eurozone countries to try to deliver that.

Denis MacShane: Have you noticed, Mr Speaker, that all the Liberal Democrats have mysteriously disappeared from the Treasury Bench as this subject has been debated? I would welcome the views of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench on housing benefit, but may I say to the Minister that I welcome, I think, his clear statement to the House that he is not prepared to go and dwell on planet Cash? He has made it absolutely clear that the Government are not going to veto the treaty, and I welcome that sensible Euro-pragmatism from the new Government.

Mark Hoban: I am not entirely sure which planet the right hon. Gentleman is on at the moment. We need to ensure that the eurozone functions effectively, but we have secured an opt-out from the sanctions proposals, originally through the opt-out in the Maastricht treaty and reinforced by the Lisbon treaty. That is the right place for this country to be in, and that is why the coalition Government are right behind that position.

James Clappison: May I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on their refreshing approach of standing up for Britain's interests in Europe, in contrast to that of Labour Members and their MEPs? Will they bear in mind, however, that there is little appetite for any extension of the competence of the EU into economic governance through any legal framework, whether by treaty or otherwise? There is still less trust in the institutions of the European Union, including the Commission, given the way in which the competence of the EU is for ever being expanded and the fact that previous safeguards in other areas have turned to dust.

Mark Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important point. I know that he thinks about these issues very deeply, and I would encourage him to read the final report of the taskforce. It sets out our exemptions explicitly, and he will recognise that they will protect the UK's position and help to develop a strong and stable eurozone, which is also in our long-term economic interests. The document makes it clear that we are outside the sanctions regime that applies to members of the eurozone and others.

Gisela Stuart: I spent yesterday in Berlin talking to German politicians, and I think that the British Government will discover treaty changes pretty quickly. Those politicians feel that the stability and growth plan is dead, and that it is not the mechanism to take us forward. May I urge the Minister to answer a specific question? Given that 25 of the 27 member states either are members of the eurozone or will have to become members under treaty obligation, and that only two have an opt-out, does he agree that anything that would strengthen the financial and economic co-ordination of the 25, plus the two with opt-outs, would represent a diminution of our sovereign ability to exert our influence and would therefore be subject to a referendum here?

Mark Hoban: As I reiterated earlier-and as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear-we will not endorse a treaty that transfers sovereignty from Westminster to the EU. The hon. Lady takes a close interest in these matters, and I know that she will recognise that views among member states about the desirability of treaty changes vary, and that the UK is not the only one that is concerned about this.

Douglas Carswell: In June, Ministers made a big deal of the fact that the UK Budget would not need to be submitted to EU institutions before it was brought to the House of Commons. Will the Minister confirm that, in fact, the UK pre-Budget report data are part of the European semester process, and that, while we might be exempt from sanctions, we are part of that surveillance? Will he be honest and admit that we are part of the EU fiscal scrutiny process?

Mark Hoban: I believe that this Parliament should hear news about this country's finances before the EU does. We have secured that situation and that was the right thing to do.

Nigel Dodds: The Minister also mentioned the increase in the EU's budget by 6%. Does he agree that many people in this country-in fact, the vast majority-will be deeply disappointed by the Prime Minister's reply to the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) during Prime Minister's questions, in which he seemed to be limiting his ambition to reduce the size of the increase in the EU budget? Should not the Government just go there and argue for, and deliver, a cut in the EU budget?

Mark Hoban: The right hon. Gentleman needs to remember that we voted against the budget increase in Council. We have taken a tough line, not only by arguing against it but by voting against it as well.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: The Minister has drawn our attention to paragraph 18 of the report. I am curious about paragraph 16, which refers to "New reputational and political measures", including the threat of "enhanced surveillance". Would the British fiscal position be subject to enhanced surveillance in certain circumstances, and what would that mean?

Mark Hoban: I take the view that the measures that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has announced in relation to strengthening the fiscal framework, and the consolidation that he announced last week, will ensure that we will not be subject to any surveillance whatever.

Kate Hoey: It is all very well for this taskforce to report on the fiscal discipline of eurozone countries, but what about the fiscal discipline of the European Union generally? It has not even got its accounts properly audited. What are we going to do not only to stop the budget going up but to achieve a cut in the amount of money that we have to pay to the European Union? If we want to ask people what they feel about this, let us have a referendum on whether we should be paying more to the European Union.

Mark Hoban: The hon. Lady makes some sensible points about this matter, but she needs to speak to some of her own colleagues in the European Parliament, because they voted against the freeze on the budget. And of course it was her right hon. and hon. Friends who gave away some of our rebate as well. That is part of the problem that this Government are trying to sort out.

Philip Davies: Whenever the Minister defends this country from a power grab and a cash grab by the European Union, he will have the enthusiastic support of Members on these Benches. Some of us are rather nervous, however, because when the Conservatives were in opposition, they opposed the European External Action Service, yet they sang its praises when introducing it in the House not long ago. They also opposed giving more money to the European Union, yet they recently rubber-stamped an increase through this House that had been agreed by the previous Government. Does the Minister agree that his Government should be judged on what they do, and not on what they say?

Mark Hoban: Absolutely. That is why I would encourage my hon. Friend to read this document. He will see the gains that we have managed to secure in Europe to defend our position.

Peter Bone: Does the Minister welcome the united approach of the coalition Government working together, under which the Prime Minister sent the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) to Brussels yesterday to duff over the EU President and soften up the EU so that the Prime Minister can finish the job this weekend?

Mark Hoban: The coalition is at its best when all Members are united behind it.

Mr Speaker: I reserve judgment at this stage as to whether the expression "duff over" constitutes parliamentary language, but the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) has got away with it on this occasion.

Afghanistan

William Hague: With permission, Mr Speaker, I will report to the House the Government's assessment of progress towards UK objectives in Afghanistan. This is the first of the quarterly reports that the Prime Minister announced in his statement to the House on 14 June.
	Making progress in Afghanistan is the top foreign policy priority for the Government, linked closely of course to our foreign and development policy towards Pakistan. We think that it is right, therefore, that Parliament is able to scrutinise the mission in Afghanistan in detail. From the beginning of the new Government, we have given full attention to Afghanistan in the National Security Council. We have ensured that Government Departments and Ministers are working together at the highest level and that the necessary resources are being devoted to the difficult task in Afghanistan. We have doubled the operational allowance for our troops, sharply increased our development aid and rebalanced the deployment of our forces in Helmand. In addition to these reports and regular updates by Ministers, we will also make more information available to the House in the form of written ministerial statements each month from November. I will make a further statement when the investigation into the tragic death of Linda Norgrove is complete.
	Members of all parties will join me in expressing gratitude to our courageous armed forces. They are the finest that any nation could hope to have. We should also remember the families of the 341 men and women who have given their lives and the many who have been wounded. For nine years, thousands of Britons have served in Afghanistan in both civilian and military roles in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and we owe them a great deal.
	It remains vital to our national security that Afghanistan be able to maintain its own security and to prevent al-Qaeda from returning. NATO's strategy is to protect the civilian population, support more effective government at every level and build up the Afghan national security forces as rapidly as is possible. The strategy also requires the Afghan Government to meet the commitments on governance and security that they made at the Kabul conference in July this year. My report today will cover all these areas. It represents the combined assessment of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, and the next quarterly report will be delivered by the Secretary of State for Defence in the new year.
	On security, we assess that steady progress is being made across Afghanistan, and specifically in Helmand and Kandahar provinces. International forces now number 130,000, and the Afghan national security forces will reach 260,000 by the end of the year, exceeding their target size for 2010. Afghan forces and the international security assistance force have checked the momentum of the insurgency, and the area under the control of the Government of Afghanistan is increasing. However, the situation remains extremely challenging. One of the effects of increased military activity is that the number of security incidents, particularly those involving direct fire, has increased sharply, so we should not underestimate the highly difficult task that our forces continue to face.
	ISAF's military effort is currently focused on Kandahar. Afghan and international forces continue to clear the insurgency out of areas adjacent to the provincial capital. Afghan security forces are taking an increased role in planning and executing the current phase of these operations and make up well over half of the forces involved. In the coming weeks, operations will focus on holding the ground that has been gained and providing a secure environment for local Afghan governance to develop.
	In Helmand province, UK forces continue to train the Afghan national security forces and conduct operations against the insurgency. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence announced on 14 October, we are increasing by over 320 the number of UK troops directly involved in the training and development of the Afghan national security forces. That increase is part of the rebalancing of UK forces in the province and has been made possible by the handover of security responsibility for Kajaki, Musa Qala and Sangin to our US allies in order to concentrate British forces in the key population centres of central Helmand.
	On 17 October, units of the 3rd brigade of the Afghan national army's 215 corps launched a significant operation to secure settlements near Gereshk. This operation is building on the success of previous ANSF operations, which have cleared the insurgency out of former safe havens in central Helmand over the course of the summer. Planning and implementation are being led by the Afghans, with British mentors from 1st Battalion Irish Guards providing support. For the first time, engineering, artillery, countering improvised explosive devices and reconnaissance are being conducted by the Afghan national army itself. US Marines, who now form the majority of ISAF troops in Helmand, continue the hard-fought struggle against the insurgency in Sangin, while in Marja they have continued to carry out operations alongside the Afghan national army and police.
	The Government are confident that we have the right military strategy in place and the right number of troops in Afghanistan. However, we must expect levels of violence to remain high and even increase as Afghan and ISAF forces tackle the insurgency. The murders by insurgents of the governor of Kunduz province and a district governor in Nangarhar province remind us of the violence that still exists even in the more secure areas of the country.
	The Prime Minister will attend a NATO summit in Lisbon on 19 November when we expect NATO to agree the process of transferring lead responsibility for security across Afghanistan to the Afghan security forces by the end of 2014. It will be a phased transition, with the Afghan security forces gradually taking the lead-as they have in Kabul-in jointly selected districts and provinces, as the conditions on the ground are met. British forces will be drawn down from combat operations by 2015.
	On governance, we assess that the Government of Afghanistan are making some progress on their Kabul conference commitments. The human rights support unit in the Ministry of Justice has been opened; the Afghan national security adviser has approved a revised national security policy. The Government are finalising a 100-day report, which will highlight progress and areas where further action is needed. But more still needs to be done, some of it more quickly.
	Last month's parliamentary elections passed without serious security incident. However, the independent Electoral Complaints Commission has confirmed that more than 1 million votes-almost a quarter of the total-were disqualified on grounds of irregularities and fraud. The Electoral Complaints Commission will investigate allegations against candidates and disqualify those found to have committed fraud before final results are issued. That is an important process to build Afghan confidence in the country's institutions.
	On 7 October, the high peace council was inaugurated, fulfilling a key request of the Afghan consultative peace jirga in June. It marks an important milestone for the Afghan peace and re-integration programme. It is for the Afghan people to shape a political settlement that reflects the needs, culture and aspirations of all the Afghan people. The UK will support a settlement that gives Afghanistan stability and security, that is representative, that gives no one group disproportionate influence, that upholds human rights and the rule of law, and that is in accordance with Afghanistan's constitutional framework. The UK will work with individuals and groups who genuinely share those aims and who accept the conditions laid down by President Karzai's Government: insurgents must renounce al-Qaeda, give up armed struggle and work within the constitutional framework. We consider on its merits any request for the UK to play a role in support of this Afghan-led process. At the same time, ISAF will continue to exert intensifying pressure on the insurgency throughout the country.
	Corruption continues to be a serious problem in Afghanistan and there has been only modest progress in anti-corruption efforts. In the past year, the criminal justice taskforce convicted 440 people, including serious narcotics dealers and corrupt officials. New mining regulations have been introduced to increase transparency and accountability. The UK is helping the Afghan Government to strengthen accountability and prevent corruption through financial management reforms and to build institutions with the ability to tackle corruption and enforce the rule of law. We are pressing for the anti-corruption monitoring and evaluation committee, which has been appointed, to start work as soon as possible.
	In early September, Afghanistan's central bank was forced to intervene to stabilise the Kabul bank after allegations of corruption. The Afghan authorities must now work with the International Monetary Fund to conduct a proper audit and take any necessary action. Weaknesses in the banking regulatory system must be addressed if Afghanistan is to maintain domestic and foreign public confidence. The Afghan economy grew last year by a rapid 22.5% and tax revenues have risen sixfold in six years. The IMF predicts that the Government of Afghanistan will be able to cover non-security running costs by 2015 and all their running costs by 2023.
	The House will recall that on 21 July the Secretary of State for International Development announced a £200 million increase in UK funding for Afghanistan to stabilise insecure areas, stimulate the economy and improve essential services. Early progress is being made at the Afghan Ministry of the Interior where the new Minister is keen to develop a more capable and accountable police force that will help sustain the transition of security responsibilities to the Afghan Government.
	The deployment of British armed forces abroad is one of the gravest of responsibilities of Government, along with that of protecting the security of British citizens and territory. In Afghanistan, the two go hand in hand. The Government understand how important it is to retain public confidence in our mission and to ensure democratic scrutiny of it. We will continue to provide regular and frank assessments to the House. Above all, we will do our utmost to ensure that NATO's strategy in Afghanistan is seen through with rigour and determination and that the extraordinary efforts of so many thousands of our armed forces serve to enhance the national security of the United Kingdom.

Yvette Cooper: I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement today and welcome this opportunity for the House to be updated and for us to show our full support for our men and women fighting in Afghanistan. They are the bravest and the best of British and they are fighting to protect our country. We are all immensely proud of their fortitude, their professionalism and their commitment.
	It has been a very difficult summer for our armed forces. We have already paid tribute today to Corporal David Barnsdale, and it continues to be hard for our soldiers' families and their communities. In my own constituency, we have lost Rifleman Jimmy Backhouse and Bombardier Craig Hopson in recent years. I pay tribute to them and their bravery, but also to every one of the 341 service personnel we have lost in Afghanistan. We must pay tribute, too, to their families, who have given so much and done so much to support our troops and our country. We should also make clear our gratitude to the aid workers and other civilian staff who take such great risks to complete important work in Afghanistan.
	We are part of the international coalition in Afghanistan, with a UN mandate to prevent the country from becoming once again a safe haven for al-Qaeda to plan and launch attacks on our population and that of our allies. That central task is unchanged, and our armed forces will have the full support of Labour Members in achieving that goal-as will the Government. The people of Afghanistan do not want to return to misrule or to harbouring what are foreign terrorist groups. That is what makes the civilian and political elements, alongside our military effort, so important.
	I would like to ask the Foreign Secretary first about the military operations. When I met General Petraeus on his visit to London two weeks ago, he said that considerable military progress was being made in targeting the Taliban leadership, but he warned, as has the Foreign Secretary, of the risk of increased security incidents as a result of the increased military activity. I welcome the Foreign Secretary's update on the development of Afghan national security forces, but may I ask what progress has been made on the hold and build exercise in Marja? Will he also tell us whether Afghan capacity in Kunduz is being prioritised following the recent insurgency attacks, including the death of Mohammad Omar, the governor of the province, to which he referred in his statement?
	Will the Foreign Secretary comment on the recent report from the Overseas Security Advisory Council, which stated that 18 aid projects worth $1.4 billion would have to be shut down by the end of the month because of the Afghan Government's policy on private security contractors? General Petraeus has told the Afghan Government that pursuing that policy too quickly could harm the aid effort. ISAF is agreed on the need for a gradual phasing out, but does the Foreign Secretary agree that engaging in the process too quickly could harm development efforts?
	We agree that there is no purely military solution to the war in Afghanistan. What is required is a political settlement built on trust, ownership and democratic rights. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that in Helmand there were comparatively few complaints about electoral fraud in the recent parliamentary elections, and that does credit to the professionalism of our forces and election officials on the ground. However, the Foreign Secretary is right to be concerned about the high levels of fraud nationally, and about the problems involving corruption to which he referred. He also referred to the disqualification of 1 million votes. Has he any evidence of particular difficulties experienced by women in participating in the elections, and can he tell us whether that is being investigated as part of the work of the Electoral Complaints Commission?
	The Foreign Secretary is aware of the centrality of the political process and good governance to a more peaceful and stable Afghanistan. Can he tell us what progress is being made in the development of secure local political institutions, as well as sustainable public services such as schools and hospitals? He referred to the growth in the Afghan economy. Can he also tell us what plans there are for a wider economic strategy for the area to sustain that progress for the future?
	On the broader issue of a political settlement, can the Foreign Secretary update the House on the progress of the reintegration programme for former Taliban fighters in Helmand? I agree with him that the process leading to a political settlement must be Afghan-led and, where possible, given international support. Crucial to Afghanistan's security and long-term stability are its neighbours. Can the Foreign Secretary tell us when the next trilateral meeting between Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan will take place? Has he discussed with the Pakistan Government the security situation in the north of Pakistan and the operations in the border regions? Can he also update us on the discussions that are taking place between NATO and Russia, and on how he is taking account of the sensitivities arising from recent history?
	We want our troops to be able to come home as soon as possible: I know that there is agreement on that throughout the House. We also support the international agreement that Afghan security forces will be able to be in the lead by 2014, following agreement at the Kabul conference, and will argue consistently for a political settlement to accompany the increase in the Afghan police and army that is necessary for a stable and secure Afghanistan.
	Will the Foreign Secretary say a little more about his approach to troop withdrawal? He has proposed a timetable for the withdrawal of combat troops, but with continued support to develop the Afghan police and army expected beyond that date. He and other Ministers have also spoken of the importance of conditions for our troops on the ground in driving decisions. He will be aware of the paramount importance of the safety of any remaining troops who are continuing in a support and training role. Can he tell the House what flexibility he attaches to the timetable that he has set out, and what consideration he will give to the safety of the remaining troops in Afghanistan in deciding the timetable for the withdrawal of combat troops?
	Since operations began in Afghanistan in 2001, 341 British military personnel have died, giving their lives in service of the country. We owe it to them, to their families, and to the men and women serving today to be clear in our approach and resolute in our support. We will continue to provide strong bipartisan support for our mission.

William Hague: I strongly welcome the right hon. Lady's questions, and, indeed, the spirit of those questions. She has expressed the unity that is felt in the House about the purpose of our mission and the support for our armed forces. I think that that matters enormously. It was always our view in opposition that it mattered enormously, and I am delighted that that is the view of the Opposition now. It matters to our forces and, indeed, to our enemies that the strong unity in the House on what we are doing is maintained, along with the recognition throughout the House of the work of our armed forces.
	The right hon. Lady mentioned her constituency, some of the casualties affecting families there, and the role of families. My own constituency contains Catterick garrison, and I am very conscious of the immense supporting role performed by the families of the armed forces. In more than one tragic incident this year, we have seen how dangerous and difficult the role of aid workers can be, and the right hon. Lady was right to draw attention to that as well.
	The right hon. Lady asked a wide range of questions against that background of unity. I agree that an over-hasty withdrawal of the ability of private security companies to operate, particularly in supporting development efforts, would be a serious mistake and could have a damaging effect on those efforts. Our ambassador in Kabul has conveyed that message strongly to the Afghan authorities and to President Karzai personally; so has the United States. Negotiations have taken place over the past few days about the matter, and we hope that a reasonable compromise can be found enabling the excesses of illegal private security companies to be curbed and dealt with, while those that are making it possible for embassies and some companies to function and development operations to take place can be maintained.
	The right hon. Lady asked about progress in Marja on hold and build. I think that progress has been made since the military process. More than 400 shops are now open in six different bazaars in Marja, and more than half the 15 schools are open, with hundreds of students involved. There has been distinct progress in the hold phase, and in beginning the build phase. The right hon. Lady drew attention to the need for more Afghan capacity in Kunduz, and I believe that that is being addressed.
	The right hon. Lady asked about allegations of electoral fraud, the large numbers involved and the possible difficulties experienced by women in participating in the electoral process. We would expect any particular difficulties experienced by women to be addressed by the Electoral Complaints Commission, but it is right to draw attention to the role of women in Afghan society and the importance of continuing to build it up in the future. It was good to see the participation of hundreds of women in the peace jirga. While we were holding the Kabul conference in late July, a parallel meeting took place of 200 Afghan women from all the provinces of Afghanistan. They too played their part in determining the future of Afghanistan.
	As for economic strategy, I referred to the rapid progress that is being made in the Afghan economy. The potential is considerable. Let me say-as long as it does not embarrass him-that the Finance Minister is one of the most capable of the Afghan Ministers. He is a very impressive Minister, who presented extremely good plans for the Afghan economy at the Kabul conference in July. The mineral wealth of Afghanistan is immense, and if it can be developed even to a small degree Afghanistan could have a bright economic future, provided that it also has the necessary security.
	Of course we discuss with the Pakistani Government-we do so every time we meet Pakistani Ministers-the inter-related issues of security in Pakistan and Afghanistan. I will update the right hon. Lady and the House on the issue of trilateral meetings when they occur.
	A model for reintegration in Helmand has been developed in Nad Ali, and the district reintegration committee has received 60 to 70 initial approaches from people who were previously fighting for the Taliban. A dozen have already been through the formal process, and have been assessed by the committee. We expect that formal process to be extended to other districts in Helmand now that Afghan officials have the authority granted by President Karzai's decree of 29 June to proceed with reintegration.
	On Russia, I discussed and indeed issued a joint statement on Afghanistan with the Russian Foreign Minister, Mr Lavrov, on my visit to Moscow two weeks ago, so there is a good deal of unity with the Russian Government about what needs to be achieved in Afghanistan. We can certainly expect to see a larger proportion of NATO's supplies coming from a northerly direction over the coming months.
	We are very clear about the issue of timing, and the Prime Minister has been very clear in his statements about our intentions: there will not be British troops in a combat role or in the present numbers in Afghanistan by 2015, although some troops could play a training role or be part of wider diplomatic relations, as they are elsewhere. We think that it is right to make that absolutely clear. It is in line with the goal of Afghan forces leading and conducting military operations in all provinces by the end of 2014. It is a clear message to the world, and indeed to the Taliban, that we are building rapidly and quite dramatically the role of the Afghan national security forces, as detailed in my statement. I hope, therefore, that what we have said about the draw-down from combat operations by 2015 will be another aspect of our policies in Afghanistan that will enjoy wide support across the House.

Peter Tapsell: I thank my right hon. Friend for his clear statement. He started by saying that the object of the statement was to look back at our original objectives and to see how far they had been achieved. May I remind him-not that he needs reminding-that those objectives were to defeat the Taliban, to abolish the poppy industry, to get rid of corruption in government, to get the girls safely back to school, to establish a democratic and peaceful Government, and to make our streets safe in Britain. How many of those objectives have been achieved after nine years of bloody warfare?

William Hague: My hon. Friend has long-standing opinions on this matter which are-and should always be-listened to with respect in the House, because there is a legitimate alternative view about our presence in Afghanistan. I think that the great majority of the House support what we are doing and our objectives. However, we should always respect an alternative view, and that is what he has always put forward. We have not yet achieved our objectives in Afghanistan, but he can see from much of what I have said that life has improved for many people in Afghanistan. It is true that, in matters of health care or schooling, life for the Afghan population has improved dramatically, and that many of them are living in more secure areas. However, we have not yet achieved our central objective, which is our own national security. That is why we have to continue to work at this, even though it is very difficult. Therefore, I will not claim to my hon. Friend that we have achieved swathes of our objectives. Our central objective has not yet been met and we have to continue to work at it.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Speaker: Order. A very sizeable number of Members are seeking to catch my eye. I would like to accommodate everyone, but we must have short questions and short answers.

Bob Ainsworth: The Foreign Secretary tells us that ISAF levels are now at 130,000 and that the level of Afghan security forces will be at 260,000 by the end of the year-2:1. He and the Defence Secretary will know that the ratio in Helmand, for example, is the other way around; there is probably a greater disparity in the inverse proportion. The Foreign Secretary will also know that there is great reluctance among the Afghan security forces and many of our allies to go to some of the most difficult areas of the country. As we draw down-the Americans have made statements about draw-down as well-how will we manage the cohesion of the alliance if we are struggling to get the Afghans to take control and if some of our allies will not go to those most difficult areas? He claims that there has been a lot of progress there, which is good news. We must try to handle the process so that we maintain the cohesion of the alliance during the draw-down period.

William Hague: The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point and we will of course be very conscious of that over the coming months and years. There are now 48 troop-contributing nations and at the Lisbon summit we hope to agree the process of transition to Afghan security control in selected districts and provinces. It is important that allies deployed in provinces where Afghan forces are able to take over do not then just say, "We are able to leave Afghanistan altogether." There will be a continuing role in other parts of Afghanistan for those forces. Therefore, that is one message in response to his question.
	The other message is that the right hon. Gentleman can see from my statement that the Afghan forces are beginning to take on some very difficult tasks in difficult areas. He would not expect the ratio to be 2:1 in their favour in Helmand, where we have so many enormous challenges, because they are still in the fairly early stages of building the ability to sustain and lead their own operations, but they are beginning to show that ability and the increase in training is now a prime requirement. That is why my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary has shifted several hundred forces into a training role and why other countries are doing the same. The number of non-commissioned officers trained by the Afghan national army over the past year has gone up by 700% and the number of officers by 175%, so the right hon. Gentleman can see that the training of those forces is beginning to grow exponentially.

Bernard Jenkin: May I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and for his determination to keep the House regularly updated? As Chair of the Public Administration Committee, I welcome that evidence of better governance of our effort in this conflict, but what exactly is the role of the National Security Council in the governance of the conflict? Why did the Government drop the proposal that I suggested to my right hon. Friend, then Leader of the Opposition and now the Prime Minister, that there should be a war cabinet-a smaller group of Ministers meeting more regularly on a cross-departmental basis-to ensure daily supervision of the conflict?

William Hague: I thank my hon. Friend for his welcome. I have made it clear that we intend to make these regular and frank assessments of the situation throughout this Parliament and throughout this conflict-for however long is necessary-so I am glad of his welcome for that. The National Security Council has spent an enormous amount of its time, in the first five and a half months of this Government, on Afghanistan. Our first meeting, on our first day in office on 12 May, was about Afghanistan. For the British Government, that is the decision-making body on these matters. Since it combines all the relevant Departments and Ministers, that is the forum in which we are able to bring our efforts together. He can see that we work together in other ways. The Defence Secretary, the International Development Secretary and I went to Afghanistan together to assess the situation for ourselves in May and we have continued to work together in that spirit, so my hon. Friend can be assured that the National Security Council functions as our war cabinet and that Ministers are working together on a daily if not hourly basis very successfully on these issues.

Angus Robertson: Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that 14 Squadron from RAF Lossiemouth is serving with bravery and distinction in Afghanistan and that with its Tornados it is saving the lives of UK service personnel on the ground? Does he agree that, in those circumstances, it would be totally inappropriate to endanger the squadron and its home base through disproportionate defence cuts in Scotland?

William Hague: The hon. Gentleman had a reply earlier from the Prime Minister about that, and he is absolutely right to draw attention to the indispensable work of our Tornado squadrons in Afghanistan. Our experience in Afghanistan is one of the reasons why it was decided in the strategic defence and security review to maintain the Tornado in our armed forces over coming years, so that is an important factor. Decisions about basing have not yet been made and he will be able to discuss that and question my defence colleagues on other occasions.

Bob Russell: Soldiers from 16 Air Assault Brigade based at Colchester garrison are currently on their third deployment to Helmand province, and I thank the Foreign Secretary for what he said about the military presence and his warm words about the families; I also thank the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) for her words. Bearing in mind that there is a three-pronged approach-military, political and economic-and that progress is being made on all three, will the Foreign Secretary ask his officials to have words with the Marquess of Reading, who heads the charity POM354, which encourages Afghan farmers to switch from growing poppies to cultivating pomegranates? That highlights an additional way to boost the Afghan economy, and to the benefit of this country's products as well.

William Hague: I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion, and I will make sure that my officials have a word about it. There are alternative crops and livelihoods to narcotics, and pomegranates is one of them. In other parts of Afghanistan, such as Herat, which I visited in July, saffron is a very good, and a very high value, alternative crop. A lot of the work being done by provincial reconstruction teams is dedicated to getting Afghan farmers to grow these crops instead.

Tony Lloyd: The Foreign Secretary should know that his commitment to giving regular and frank reports to the House is important in maintaining a national commitment to our mission in Afghanistan. In his statement, he rightly drew attention to the essentially Afghani nature of any peace process. It is right and proper that it should be Afghan-led, and it is not proper for even Afghanistan's allies to load too many conditions on to the process. However, does the Foreign Secretary agree that it is absolutely vital that both President Karzai and his Government-as well as, perhaps, our allies in Washington-recognise that we are not prepared for the conditions of human rights and the rule of law to be thrown out of the window in any peace process?

William Hague: Again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his welcome for the idea of giving these statements. One reason why we have introduced them is that it is important that we do not discuss Afghanistan in this House only when there is a sudden crisis or there are heavy casualties. Rather, we should discuss it regularly so we are able to see things in the round without there being an atmosphere of sudden drama. That is what we are trying to achieve by making these statements.
	I agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's question on political reconciliation. It is very important that there is a political process. The political authority for that now exists in Afghanistan, and in my statement I took care to refer to the importance of the Afghan constitutional framework, which guarantees human rights, including women's rights. I am sure that all hon. Members will strongly support maintaining that in any future political settlement.

Julian Lewis: Does my right hon. Friend remember that when General Sir David Richards took over as Chief of the General Staff only last year he predicted that the current strategy would take 30 or 40 years to work? Given that prediction, with which I broadly concur, what will we do if we still find ourselves in what my right hon. Friend describes as an "extremely challenging" situation in three or four years' time? Will we still be committed to withdrawing militarily and operationally before the next general election?

William Hague: To be fair to General Richards, I think he was talking about the efforts that will be required to sustain reconstruction, economic progress and regional stability in Afghanistan. I do not think he was talking about a large British military presence or involvement in combat operations for 30 or 40 years. Again, I know that there are legitimate alternative points of view, but we consider it to be right and best to make clear our position that we will draw down from combat operations by 2015. That means that the Afghan Government know that, and it goes alongside our determination to build up rapidly the capabilities of the Afghan national security forces. It also leaves our allies in no doubt about our position. It should be remembered that if we are still there by 2015, we will have been involved in Helmand for much longer than the second world war lasted. British troops will have made an immense contribution therefore, and, in line with the goals for the Afghan forces by 2014, we should be able to speak confidently about 2015.

Ann Clwyd: As the Secretary of State has said several times in the last hour, human rights and women's rights are important aspects of our work in Afghanistan. Everybody will agree that the empowerment of women has proceeded-women have returned to the professions and girls have returned to school. Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that in any settlement talks, particularly with the Taliban, if there are arguments for an extension of extreme Sharia law-which would, of course, disempower women-he will continue to fight for progress in women's rights in Afghanistan, and that there will be no sell-out on those issues?

William Hague: In this country and across the House we will always stand up for human rights-of which women's rights are an indivisible part-all over the world, including in Afghanistan. We all strongly welcome the much more extensive involvement of women in Afghan civil society and political life, of which I spoke earlier and to which the right hon. Lady just referred. We are not laying down the terms of a political settlement, however; we are not remotely near that stage. There is no political settlement currently being discussed around a table, whether by the Afghan Government and the leaders of the Taliban or anybody else. That is not the stage that we are at, so it is premature to talk about what might emerge from any such discussions, but the conditions set out by President Karzai include adherence to the Afghan constitutional framework, and we should continue to give that robust support.

Kris Hopkins: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the recent revelations that members of the Karzai Government had received bags of cash from a dangerous rogue state compromise not only the chances of future peace in Afghanistan but the confidence of the people who are sending their young men and women to support a state that is clearly corrupt?

William Hague: I drew attention in my statement to the fact that although some progress on corruption has been made, it is by no means enough. We want to see a lot more progress on tackling corruption. That is very important, and the recent revelations about the Kabul bank have provided the most dramatic illustration of the need for that. In the absence of such progress, international confidence is undermined. It is true that a number of countries provide funding in certain forms to the Afghan Government, and it is important that that is transparent and used for legitimate Government functions and that it is not the basis of interference in the internal affairs of Afghanistan. I reiterate, however, that some progress has been made: 27 of the Afghan Ministers have now declared all their assets, and new mining contracts are being undertaken in a transparent way, published on the web so that everyone can see them. My hon. Friend is right, however, to reinforce the fact that for there to be international confidence, an intensified effort to tackle corruption is required.

David Winnick: Unsurprisingly, I would like an earlier date for the ending of the combat role for British troops. At least a date has now been set, but I would like it to be at least two years earlier than 2015. Is it not encouraging that the Government, and presumably my party's Front-Bench team, now accept that NATO will not win an outright military victory and that, as Mr Gorbachev has just said-and he should know-a political settlement can only really be decided by the political forces inside Afghanistan?

William Hague: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on a couple of points. To say that we will draw down from combat operations at an earlier date than when we can expect the Afghan national forces to be able to sustain and lead their own operations would be a mistake, and I would resist his call to set an earlier date. Indeed, to be fair to his party's Front-Bench team, I do not think they have ever maintained that there is a purely military solution to the problems of Afghanistan, and neither have we. We have always stressed that a political process is important as well, and I have often heard the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband), and the former Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), who is sitting just in front of the hon. Gentleman, say that. The difference between what Mr Gorbachev has been talking about and what is happening now is that this is not the Soviet Union imposing its will on Afghanistan: this is 48 troop-contributing nations, with more than 70 nations assembled to give various support at the Kabul conference, operating under a United Nations mandate to liberate the people of Afghanistan from what happened before, and also with the important goal of maintaining our own national security. It is a different situation, therefore, and I disagree with the hon. Gentleman's analysis of it.

Robert Smith: With a clear date set for a military draw-down, is the Foreign Secretary aware of concerns in the development community that that could lead to less political interest in Afghanistan and, therefore, less commitment to long-term development aid? Can he reassure those working in development that there is a long-term recognition of how much we need to maintain that commitment to development aid?

William Hague: There is a very strong recognition of that, as my colleagues from the Department for International Development are saying from the Front Bench. Development aid to Afghanistan is being increased and for the long-term future we will have a major national interest in the stability and prosperity of Afghanistan and of Pakistan next door. Pakistan is on its way to becoming our largest recipient of development aid in the world, and we put in huge and greatly increased resources there to try to bring stability to the whole region. So, yes, our work in Afghanistan will have to continue in that form long into the future.

William McCrea: Our thoughts and prayers are certainly with our soldiers who are standing in daily danger in Afghanistan. We pay tribute to their gallantry, especially that of the Royal Irish Regiment and the Irish Guards. Will the Foreign Secretary tell the House whether our coalition forces are receiving the co-operation that they need from the Government of Pakistan in their efforts to fight the terrorism from within their borders?

William Hague: Yes, we have many discussions with the Government of Pakistan and with military leaders in Pakistan. The first thing to note is that relations have improved sharply in recent times between both the political leaders and the military leaders of Pakistan and Afghanistan-this is with each other-and that greatly assists such co-operation. Huge quantities of supplies for NATO also pass through Pakistan. The House will be aware of recent interruptions to the passing through of those supplies, but that matter has now been dealt with and we hope that it will not recur. I do not wish to stand here complaining about the Government of Pakistan, who have sustained enormous casualties. The Pakistani military have sustained enormous casualties in fighting insurgencies within their own country and they ensure that very large quantities of the necessary supplies pass through their country. We are getting a lot of co-operation.

Therese Coffey: I welcome the Foreign Secretary's statement and add my tribute to Corporal Barnsdale, who received a full tribute from the Prime Minister. Corporal Barnsdale was part of 61 Field Squadron, 33 Engineer Regiment, which is based at Rock barracks in Woodbridge, as is 23 Engineer Regiment, which is currently deployed abroad. I welcome the statement that the Afghan security forces are starting to do more things such as countering the improvised explosive devices. Is there a strategy to prioritise some of the operations that are transferred to the Afghan forces, as opposed to geographical provinces?

William Hague: I have listed some of the geographical areas where the Afghan forces are taking on an increased role. The Afghan forces are building up in size. The army, for instance, was 134,000 strong this year-it is slightly larger now-and is meant to become 171,000 strong next year. The challenge now is to increase their specialist capabilities, particularly their intelligence capabilities, engineering, logistics and military police functions. Of course, those sorts of things are more difficult to build up, because they require a great deal more training and expertise than the training of what one might consider to be the pure infantry. That is an important part of the strategy going forward.

Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement and for his commitment to report regularly to the House, which is extremely welcome. I was, however, very disappointed in his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). President Gorbachev and his country suffered more than anyone else, apart from the Afghan people, because of the military activities of the red army in Afghanistan. He has called for a political solution and a withdrawal, and countered strongly against any Russian involvement. Is it not time that we faced up to the reality that after nine years in Afghanistan, with a lot of lives and billions of pounds lost, no solution, either immediately or in the long term, is in sight? Is it not time to pursue the political road, rather than the military road, rapidly?

William Hague: The important point to make is that the political and military roads, as the hon. Gentleman calls them, go necessarily together; there would not be much of a political road without the military pressure. He has called for a political solution and he can gather from everything I am saying that we want a political settlement in Afghanistan; we want a political process that leads to that. But we will get that only from an effective military campaign, from intensifying the pressure on the insurgency and from doing all the work that we are doing to build up the capacity of the Afghan Government. If we and our allies were to withdraw now, all that work would come to an end and there would be another round of great bloodshed, including among the civilian population, and not a political solution. I ask him to see those things as going necessarily together.

Justin Tomlinson: What is the Foreign Secretary's assessment of the potential to maintain a full and fair democratic process in the long term?

William Hague: It is another of those challenges that I speak about. Clearly, democratic processes are now taking place. A parliamentary election has just taken place in Afghanistan with far fewer incidents, although there was still a lot of fraud. From an international viewpoint, this election was conducted in a more respectable way than aspects of the presidential election, given some of the accusations made about that. Progress has clearly been made. The role of independent members of election commissions is being more widely respected and understood, and I think that democratic principles are making inroads into Afghanistan. This will take time and it is something on which we need to have patient effort and persistence. It is a huge challenge, but some progress is being made.

Sandra Osborne: The Foreign Secretary will be aware of the British public's concerns about the welfare of our troops returning from Afghanistan and, indeed, that of veterans in general. I welcome these regular reports, but will he consider including in them details of progress on how we can further support our troops after they return from Afghanistan and as they become veterans?

William Hague: That is a very important point, and my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary will include that subject in his assessment when he gives the next of these reports.

Stephen Mosley: What is the Foreign Secretary's assessment of last weekend's WikiLeaks reports, which made reference to 21 incidents in Afghanistan involving British troops?

William Hague: There is no place in our policies for the mistreatment of detainees, and we have been very clear about that as a Government. We have, of course, published the guidance we give to our intelligence officers and announced an inquiry into previous allegations. But I do condemn the unauthorised release of information, which can endanger our forces and people who have worked with our forces, and which gives a one-sided propaganda gift for insurgent, so I condemn those leaks. It is our forces who are engaged, above all, in protecting the civilian population in Afghanistan, often having to accept casualties because of the work they do to protect that civilian population. The people who indiscriminately attack the civilian population and do not care whether women, children and other people are blown up by their improvised explosive devices are the insurgents and the terrorists.

Derek Twigg: May I thank the Foreign Secretary for the report and ask him to give an example of when during a conflict or war and in the middle of a battle we gave our enemy prior notice that we would be leaving the battlefield?

William Hague: For all the reasons that I have given, I think that this is the right thing to do. As I said, there are legitimate differences of view, but considering the subject in the round and the length of our deployment, as well as the need to emphasise the building up of the Afghan national security forces-to concentrate on that over the next few years and to be clear with the Afghan Government that that is our intention-we think that it is right to say what we have about 2015. Of course, it does not mean that forces fighting for stability in Afghanistan are at any point leaving the battlefield. There are now more international security assistance forces and Afghan forces deployed than at any stage in the past nine years. Given the huge increases that are envisaged in the size of the Afghan national security forces, there will continue to be an increase in the number of forces available for years to come. The forces of security and stability in Afghanistan are not leaving the battlefield.

Andrew Stephenson: As chairman of the all-party group on Pakistan, I welcome what my right hon. Friend has said today, particularly about working closely with that country, as well as what he said at the launch of the British Pakistan Foundation two weeks ago. May I have his assurances that we will continue to work even more closely with Pakistan to address the security situation in the region?

William Hague: Yes, absolutely. That is critical for the security of the region and for the prosperity and stability of Pakistan, which is a prime national interest of this country. One thing that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have been busy doing over the past few weeks is trying to ensure that it is commonly agreed across Europe that the future prosperity and development of Pakistan, and our working closely and strategically with the Government of Pakistan, are absolutely essential and in the vital interests of the whole of Europe and the western world, not just of the United Kingdom. For instance, our achievement recently of trade concessions for Pakistan, which we secured at the last European Council last month, is a good illustration of that work.

Gisela Stuart: The Foreign Secretary mentioned the success of the criminal justice taskforce and the 440 convictions in the past year. Is he satisfied that those convicted actually served their sentences, and will he also update us on the progress made on the number of secure prison places in Afghanistan?

William Hague: We will have to satisfy ourselves about those things as we go along. The hon. Lady is quite right to draw attention to that. Where people are sentenced, we will want them to serve their sentences. We want more prosecutions to take place under the same procedures. We do not yet have enough secure prison places in Afghanistan and we are very careful about the terms under which we transfer prisoners to Afghan control. There is a need for more secure places and we will keep the House updated about that, too.

Peter Bone: I would like to thank the Foreign Secretary for these regular updates and you, Mr Speaker, for allowing these statements to run for such a long time. It will be particularly welcomed by the families of our servicemen and women who are serving abroad. Many in this House will know the concern when their loved ones are either about to go or when they are out there. They carry on with their normal daily lives, but they never forget their loved ones. We should pay tribute to those people.

William Hague: Absolutely. Across the House, we pay tribute to them. I know that that is a heartfelt question from my hon. Friend, because his son is about to go to Afghanistan for the second time, serving in Chinooks. All of us who have flown around Afghanistan in Chinook helicopters marvel at the work that those people do. We can all be in absolute accord with what he has said today.

Points of Order

Christopher Leslie: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Earlier, during the urgent question, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave the incorrect impression that Labour Members of the European Parliament supported an increase in the European Union budget. Is it in order for the Financial Secretary to be asked to come to the House to correct his mistake, given that Labour MEPs most certainly did not vote in favour of an increase in the EU budget, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) made clear yesterday?

Mr Speaker: That is a matter of debate and not a point of order, as I think the hon. Gentleman well knows. He has placed his concern firmly and fairly on the record.

Mark Tami: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In Prime Minister's questions, in answer to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley), the Prime Minister stated that BAE Systems' loss of work under the defence review would somehow be offset by the A400M programme, which is in fact an EADS Airbus programme and not a BAE Systems programme, as the Prime Minister seems to think. BAE Systems will have little or no involvement in that programme. Will he come to the House and apologise?

Mr Speaker: No is the short answer to that. I will say to the hon. Gentleman-I will not call him a persistent offender, but he is certainly persistent-that that is a point of debate and arguably a point of frustration, but I am afraid that it does not constitute a point of order. He has put his views on the record and he may share them with others. If there are no further points of order, we will come now to the ten-minute rule Bill, for which the hon. Gentleman in question has been patiently waiting.

Planning (Developer Bonds)

Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

Justin Tomlinson: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision regarding local authority powers to require developers to deposit funds in the form of a bond to be used if the local area is not maintained properly; and for connected purposes.
	I am introducing the Bill to highlight an issue that I have previously raised in debates in Parliament and that I campaigned on actively during my 10 years as a councillor in Swindon, which relates to the lack of maintenance in unadopted areas. With housing developments set to increase substantially over the next 25 years, this is an issue that will affect any Member of Parliament who has new housing in their constituency.
	When a new development takes place, all related street scene work and costs remain the responsibility of the developer until the area is adopted by the local authority. Developments are often on a large scale, and it is not unusual for an area to remain unadopted for many years. My former ward was a new build estate, growing from just 1,800 houses in 2000 to 8,500 in 2010. Throughout my time as a councillor, my postbag from fellow local residents was dominated by complaints regarding the lack of maintenance in unadopted areas-street scene issues, including those in the following three areas: incidental open spaces, such as grass verges, trees, street furniture, bushes and foliage; general street cleaning, such as that to remove litter and graffiti; and the maintenance of roads, fixing potholes, kerbstones and street lights. The last point is exceptionally apt now that the dark nights are drawing in.
	A typical example, which I am sure hon. Members will have experienced, is when a resident contacts the local authority, often through the local councillor or Member of Parliament, to complain about the lack of street scene maintenance in their unadopted local area. The local authority then has to identify the relevant developer and request that the issue be addressed. That can have one of three outcomes. Ideally, the developer will take immediate action to address the street scene issues. I must stress that with many responsible and proactive developers that would be the case. However, all too often it takes repeated effort from the local authority or local residents to encourage the developer into action. In the final outcome, the developer simply never responds, or has even ceased to exist, leaving the issue unaddressed.
	The frustration of local residents with the latter two scenarios is compounded by the fact they still pay the full council tax rate, which includes a contribution towards street scene works that cannot be used in an unadopted area as it remains the private land of the developer. In my constituency we have estates such as Ash Brake that have remained unadopted for 15 years. It is no wonder that residents feel they do not get the full value of their council tax when they look out of their windows to see swathes of overgrown shrubs and verges.
	In fact, my last residents survey as a councillor brought in a staggering 1,200 responses to highlight outstanding street scene issues across the unadopted areas. When the local authority was unable to get the relevant developer to respond, either the issues remained outstanding or local residents formed groups such as the excellent Redhouse residents association, not just to hold developers to account but to organise action days to clear litter. I am sure that hon. Members can relate that to their own similar local experiences.
	The principle of a developer bond is not new; I am proposing an extension of the powers already granted to local authorities, the first of which was granted through section 38 agreements under the Highways Act 1980. Those powers give the local authority the ability at the point of adoption to ensure that the highways infrastructure is built to an appropriate standard and is not a burden on the public purse. That covers things such as street lighting, pavement construction and drainage. However, it is relevant only when the developer is ready to seek adoption, when we often see an 11th-hour flurry of activity, as the developer is effectively forced to bring an area up to the agreed standard to allow for adoption. A section 38 agreement cannot force a developer into action before adoption, or make the developer complete the process of adoption, which is why areas in my constituency remain unadopted after 15 years.
	The other power would allow for commuted sums secured through section 106 agreements. This is proving to be essential in sustaining the long-term maintenance of high-cost assets, which are often used as a wow factor by developers to generate sales, such as architectural street lighting, bridges, ponds and decorative street furniture. Without that, the standard local authority budgets would not be sufficient to maintain those items. The willingness to enter into those agreements shows that developers often appreciate the need for areas to be maintained in the long term. Those powers can be helpful and are to be encouraged, but they are limited to the stage when the roads are formally adopted for maintenance by local authorities.
	My Bill would amend section 38 of the Highways Act 1980. It includes a new provision to allow local authorities to include a developer bond for the maintenance of the street scene in unadopted areas as part of a planning application. This is needed, because there are currently no powers available to local authorities to cover the transitional period between the selling of the first house and the area being adopted. In effect, I am seeking to address a discrepancy in the powers available to local authorities to ensure that estates are maintained adequately while they are unadopted.
	My proposed system would allow the local authority to step in where a developer has not maintained an area to an acceptable standard, and it would then be able to recover its costs from the developer through the bond. The responsibility for maintaining the street scene would remain with developers, so my Bill would not affect developers who already maintain areas to a satisfactory standard. It would, however provide local authorities and local residents with a safety net, if the developers do not play ball. That will help when developers refuse to bring an area up to an acceptable standard for road adoption, as they will no longer be able simply to ignore the problem. The bond would not tie developers in to long-term contracts, because it would be released, often untouched, as soon as the area was adopted.
	Introducing developer bonds for the period before bringing an area up for adoption will also incentivise the developers to pass the responsibility of the area on to the local authority as quickly as possible. I emphasise that there are many good, responsible developers. In fact, they share the frustration about the damage done to the reputation of new build estates. My Bill would help to increase buyers' confidence in new build areas, which will benefit both residents and developers.
	In summation, this Bill will improve residents' quality of life in new build areas throughout the country. As I have mentioned, it will not affect the majority of developers, who already adopt good practice in maintaining the street scene during the transition period, but it will improve good practice among developers for the benefit of residents.
	In preparing the Bill I have been grateful to hon. Members who have highlighted their shared experiences of this issue. I hope that the Bill will go some way towards helping to improve the quality of life of all residents who have paid a premium to live in a new build house.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Ordered,
	That Justin Tomlinson, Anna Soubry, Andrew Percy, Mr Robert Buckland, Andrew Stephenson, Stephen Gilbert, Caroline Nokes, Mr Philip Hollobone, Bob Blackman, Andrew Bingham, Mark Garnier and Karen Bradley present the Bill.
	Justin Tomlinson accordingly presented the Bill.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 June 2011, and to be printed (Bill 99)
	 .

Postal Services Bill

Second  Reading

Vincent Cable: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
	Let me begin by making it clear why we are here: Royal Mail and the Post Office are two cornerstones of our society. They are different businesses, but they are both essential to everyday life in the UK. Royal Mail is responsible for collecting and delivering letters. It provides a universal service that ensures the collection and delivery of letters and parcels from any postbox to any address in the country, and all at uniform, affordable prices. The Post Office is an unrivalled network of shops spread throughout the country. It allows people local access to essential services in the heart of their communities. The aim of this Bill is to secure the future of those two institutions and the services that they provide.
	I look forward to support from Labour Members, because I know that they genuinely tried in recent years to secure the future of Royal Mail and the post office network. They no doubt agree with me that this must be the final, successful attempt to conclude that process.

Malcolm Bruce: We know that the previous Government tried unsuccessfully to privatise the Post Office. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition amendment would, if carried, prevent us from carrying out the reforms that he and I, as former Trade and Industry and Treasury spokesmen, understand require capital to invest in the Post Office, and the workers and mutual beneficiaries to take a degree of ownership and control, in order to get the Post Office out of the mess in which it has been struggling for the past 10 years?

Vincent Cable: The amendment to which my right hon. Friend has referred was tabled by the nationalists rather than by the Labour Opposition. I think that it was drafted before the nationalists were aware of our proposals to strengthen the network. I hope that when they hear what we have to say they will rethink their amendment, because we will have done a great deal to meet their concerns.

Michael Weir: It will be interesting to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say. The National Federation of SubPostmasters has raised its concern about the split between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. It has pointed out that it cannot find anywhere else in the world where there is such a split between the delivery network and the post office network. Can he give us such an example?

Vincent Cable: I will address the matters that the hon. Gentleman has described in detail. I remember him campaigning on this issue in the previous Parliament, when he lost nine sub-post offices in his constituency. We are implementing measures that will stop that happening in future. When he hears about them he will be considerably reassured.
	Turning to the background to the legislation, there is, as I have said, a lot of common ground.

Emily Thornberry: The right hon. Gentleman may be aware that my constituency includes the second largest sorting office in the world. The 2,000 employees there believe that they provide a universal service at a low price. The system is not broken, and they do not understand why it is being "fixed" by the attempt to privatise it. Why are we going ahead with this?

Vincent Cable: The hon. Lady's colleagues in the previous Government would have answered that question for her, because they acknowledged, as we do, that the system is broken. I will take her step by step through the arguments in the original Hooper report and in the updated version, which are common to hon. Members on both sides of the House.
	The country that pioneered postal services in the 19th century has been left behind in the 21st century. The rise of e-mail and the internet has led to a dramatic fall in the number of letters that we send. The previous Government were well aware of that problem, and they commissioned an independent review of the future of the universal postal service chaired by Richard Hooper. That review found that letter volumes were in structural decline, that Royal Mail was in great financial difficulty and that the universal postal service was under threat. The report's conclusion was encapsulated in its title, "Modernise or Decline". All parts of this House accepted the conclusion that the current system was broken; that relates to the previous intervention.
	The company, the union, businesses and commentators all agreed with the Hooper conclusion that the status quo then was "untenable". What was the status quo then is still the status quo now, and Richard Hooper is clear that Royal Mail is now in a worse position. How has that happened? The previous Government endorsed Richard Hooper's recommendations and acted on them. They brought forward a Bill that the Liberal Democrats and our coalition partners supported. Sadly, it never reached this House, so the future of Royal Mail was not secured. That Bill would have allowed private sector investment in Royal Mail. It would also have enabled the Government to tackle the pension deficit, and reformed the regulatory regime for postal services. Those are all measures with which we agree, and they form the basis of this Bill. We agree with those measures because, as Richard Hooper says, they are essential if the universal postal service is to survive.

Emily Thornberry: May I make the point that the pension needs to be sorted out, sale or no sale, that regulation needs to be reconsidered, and that both those things can be done without the privatisation of Royal Mail?

Vincent Cable: I shall come to the argument for not restricting private investment access in a moment. The simple point is that without private investment we will not get the capital investment that the Royal Mail needs to modernise. That is a simple argument, but I will develop it at length.

Huw Irranca-Davies: rose -

Kate Hoey: rose -

Vincent Cable: If hon. Members want to make the same point, there is no point in pursuing their interventions, but if the hon. Lady's is on a different point, I shall take hers.

Kate Hoey: If everything that the previous Government wanted to do was so good-and many Opposition Members opposed what they wanted to do-why are the coalition Government not simply taking up where they left off? Why are they going even further and totally privatising Royal Mail rather than leaving a majority share in the public sector?

Vincent Cable: I shall take the hon. Lady through the arguments step by step, but the situation has deteriorated badly. I think that she lost seven post offices in her constituency on the Post Office side, so she will know that the situation is not satisfactory and that the status quo cannot be maintained.

Huw Irranca-Davies: rose -

Vincent Cable: I shall take further interventions later but I want to proceed with the next step of the argument.
	Let me dwell a little on Royal Mail's financial problems. When I came into government I was left in no doubt as to the real difficulties. I asked Richard Hooper to update his report from December 2008 because I wanted to ensure that the conclusions were still valid-and they are. Let no one in the House be under any illusion regarding Royal Mail's predicament. I recognise that there has been some progress. Opposition Members who represent areas with sorting offices will know that unions and management are now working together better-we acknowledge that-but that the pension deficit has ballooned. It is now more than £8 billion and Royal Mail has, proportionately, the largest pension deficit of any major company in the United Kingdom. In addition, it loses almost £1 million a day on its trading activity. It is an inefficient business in a market that is declining faster than anyone predicted. Hooper now forecasts that letter volumes could fall by as much as 40% in the next five years if nothing is done. That is why we are moving further and faster.

Russell Brown: I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman now finds himself in coalition with the Conservatives. There is a pension fund with a substantial amount of money in it; I know there is a deficit, but will he give the House a guarantee that the coalition Government will not do what a previous Conservative Government did to the bus employees superannuation fund? Under Margaret Thatcher they took money from that pension fund, which the Labour Government later had to replace.

Vincent Cable: I shall address the pension proposals in some detail. They are virtually identical to what the previous Government were preparing to do. We are talking about taking on a massive liability from that fund. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman, who seems to be trying to defend the status quo, that he lost 13 post office branches under the previous Government. We are trying to deal with the problem that he and others have faced.

Russell Brown: rose -

Angus MacNeil: rose -

Vincent Cable: I give way to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil).

Angus MacNeil: My constituents in the outer Hebrides want to know what the service will look like for customers in the Hebrides, and for my postal workers, after these measures.

Vincent Cable: As I reminded hon. Members a few moments ago, customers in the Hebrides have experienced a decline. We are going to turn that around, and I shall explain the process and investment by which we will do that.

Russell Brown: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I merely want to put the record straight. The Secretary of State has indicated that I lost 13 post offices but I did not; I lost two. I am anxious that he is bandying figures around.

Lindsay Hoyle: That is not a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman has certainly made a point of clarification.

Vincent Cable: The hon. Gentleman might want to correct the official record if that is the case.
	Let me explain why we need the Bill. We should ask what will happen if we do not act, and do not proceed with it. The Government believe that we still need a universal postal service, collecting from all post boxes and delivering to all 28 million postal addresses six days a week. We will still be required under EU law to fund the universal service if no one can provide it commercially, so the taxpayer could be left to pick up the pieces. We cannot predict how much that would cost, or when it would happen if no action were taken, but we know that it would not be cheap and we are not prepared to take that risk with taxpayers' money-not with the public finances in the current state. That is why we are determined to press ahead with the Bill.
	This is not simply about making sure that taxpayers do not have to cover the costs: it is about doing what is right for the future of the company and its employees. Richard Hooper is clear that if his recommendations are taken forward urgently, the Royal Mail has a potentially healthy future. As my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), said almost two years ago,
	"I believe that Royal Mail and the postal market can thrive in the future, provided that decisive action is taken now."-[ Official Report, 16 December 2008; Vol. 485, c. 966.]
	We are taking that action.
	The problems that Royal Mail faces can be addressed through the Bill. After all, it is the only company with the ability to visit all 28 million addresses on a daily basis. It has an unrivalled customer base, and it can build on its position as the leading provider of letters and parcels by providing a new range of digital products for its customers. The Bill is the only way that we can make that positive future a reality.

Sandra Osborne: I shall save the right hon. Gentleman some trouble by telling him that I lost 11 post offices and gained a mobile van service. Many Opposition Members were not happy about partial privatisation. One reason given for it by the previous Government was that the commercial situation and market conditions were not right, so it would be difficult to get a decent buyer. What makes him think, in the current economic circumstances, that anyone else will be interested?

Vincent Cable: We are providing a framework in which a sale could take place and we are not setting timetables or limits. Those are the conditions in which we are most likely to get value for money. This is a framework piece of legislation. That is why we are likely to do better than before. I shall come to the details regarding Royal Mail shares in a moment.

Andrew George: The Secretary of State will be aware that people in west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly are reassured that the universal service obligation will be retained. However, the access arrangements that were agreed, with regulatory intervention from Postcomm, have left Royal Mail in the very weak position of delivering letters for its competitors at a price that, frankly, undermines its commercial viability. I note that clause 48 addresses this issue, but can he reassure me that Royal Mail will have a far better crack of the whip when those terms are negotiated?

Vincent Cable: I assure my hon. Friend that will be the case. My colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who has responsibility for postal services, will spell out later today and in Committee exactly how the process will operate. My hon. Friend is right: at present the deregulation provisions do not give the Royal Mail sufficient protection against unfair competition. We want to make sure that there is more protection in the deregulation process.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Vincent Cable: I shall take one more intervention before I move on.

Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way; I do not know why he was so reluctant to take my question earlier.
	I do not have an ideological argument with the Secretary of State. My point is about the argument that he has failed to address. Why is full privatisation needed, rather than the proposal that we put on the table? He has not addressed that point. It is not Red Huw from Ogmore making this argument, but the large majority of Liberals. Conservative voters are saying the same thing: why full privatisation?

Vincent Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that this is not an ideological question. I shall come to the share sale issue shortly, but I have no ideological stance on it. I see a role for public ownership in certain circumstances: I think I was ahead of most Opposition Members in pursuing public ownership of the banks during the crisis. There is a role for public ownership in certain circumstances, but this happens to be a case when it serves no useful purpose, and we are quite prepared to adopt a pragmatic approach to get the best provision for Royal Mail and the universal service, and the best value for the taxpayer. We have no ideological hang-ups, and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman does not either.

David Anderson: May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that for more than a century a number of Labour Members have believed in the nationalisation of the banks?

Vincent Cable: Is that the voice of heritage Labour-at last?
	Let me summarise the substance of the Bill. As the discussion so far has revealed, Members will find much in the measure that is familiar. As I said, when drafting the Bill we drew on much the same evidence as the previous Government. The facts are not in dispute, and we have reached much the same conclusion: the company needs private sector investment, the pension deficit must be tackled and the regulatory regime must be reformed. However, this Bill is not identical to the previous Government's Bill.
	We have taken the opportunity to learn from what has gone before and to develop a new Bill that builds on this Government's commitment to employee participation. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East made a major contribution to advancing the debate on the modernisation of the Post Office. When he was Minister for postal services, he said:
	"We need a longer-term plan, with a proper buy-in from the work force".
	-[ Official Report, 11 February 2009; Vol. 487, c. 1449.]
	That is exactly what the Bill hopes to deliver.
	First, let me turn to specific issues relating to the Post Office. As I have said, the Post Office and Royal Mail are different businesses. They face different challenges, which means that our approach has to be different. The post office network is unique. There are about 11,500 branches across the country, and it operates in places where other retailers do not. It offers services that other retailers do not. Above all, the Post Office plays an essential social and economic role in our communities. For that reason, the Post Office is for sale. The Bill is absolutely clear on that point.
	I am concerned, however, that the current structure of the company is holding the network back. It seems to me that the Post Office is ideally suited to a Co-operative Group style of structure, where employees, sub-postmasters and communities get a greater say in how the company is run. The Bill includes a provision that would allow for a possible future mutualisation of the Post Office. Let me be clear that no firm decision has been taken on mutualisation; there would be a full public consultation before we moved to a mutual structure. In the meantime, I have asked Co-operatives UK to explore options for how a mutualised Post Office would work best.

Mark Hendrick: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether any thought has been given as to whether that would be a worker co-operative or a consumer co-operative?

Vincent Cable: It could be either, or a combination of the two. That is why we have turned to the Co-operative Group to give us advice on the structure. However, I take it from the tone of the hon. Gentleman's intervention that that broad approach would be welcome to him.

Albert Owen: The right hon. Gentleman talks about a mutual for the Post Office, but has he looked at a mutual or other model for the Royal Mail, rather than pure privatisation? In Wales, as he knows, Welsh Water is run by a not-for-profit organisation. It is unique and gives universal service across Wales. Could that not be done for the Post Office across the United Kingdom?

Vincent Cable: The Royal Mail and the Post Office are different businesses and they require fundamentally different solutions. The issue for Royal Mail is capital-how we deal with the pension fund. It requires a different model.

Adrian Bailey: The Secretary of State has made slightly contradictory statements. First, he said he was consulting Co-ops UK for advice on mutuality and then he said he was consulting the Co-op Group. They are distinct organisations-one is advisory and the other is a huge retail operation. Could he clarify which he means?

Vincent Cable: We are asking Co-operatives UK to give us advice. The hon. Gentleman is very close to the co-operative movement, so his input to the discussions will be welcome.

John Redwood: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Vincent Cable: Oh dear.

John Redwood: I am grateful to the Secretary of State. Do I assume that he is talking about mutualising the Crown offices, which the state already owns, and not mutualising the bulk of post offices, which are independent private sector retail businesses that it might be difficult to mutualise against their will?

Vincent Cable: Individual post offices are of course self-managed, but they operate within Post Office Ltd. It is the structure of Post Office Ltd that we are concerned about. The process clearly needs advice and further thought, which is why we are approaching it with the maximum degree of engagement and consultation, and the right hon. Gentleman will be one of the people whose advice I shall seek.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Vincent Cable: I have taken a substantial number of interventions and I want to proceed.
	I know that these proposals mean setting out on a new course, and that before any changes can be made the network will have to be put on a secure financial footing. Subject to consultation, it is the right outcome for the network. I hope the Post Office can make the transition before the end of this Parliament.
	Let me further reassure the House about how we shall put the Post Office on a more secure financial footing.

Huw Irranca-Davies: rose-

Vincent Cable: I will take interventions at the end of the next section of my speech. I have already given the hon. Gentleman answers to some of his questions.
	Communities up and down the country have rightly been concerned about the shrinkage of the network over previous years, and despite the efforts of Opposition Members-notably the shadow Chancellor-there has been remorseless decline over the last three decades. The previous Government's closure programmes shut 5,000 post offices. I commend Members on both sides of the House who fought against those closures. Those days are over. I echo the words of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) from some years ago:
	"We had a choice. One was to continue to watch decline turn to crisis and crisis turn to collapse, leaving it as someone else's problem down the road."-[ Official Report, 15 February 2000; Vol. 344, c. 870.]
	This Government do not believe in passing on the problem, so we shall fund the post office network, and when I say "fund" I do not mean setting aside millions to buy off sub-postmasters when we close their business.
	The option of keeping the network on a care and maintenance basis and letting it decline is one we have rejected. I can today announce £1.34 billion of new funding for the Post Office over the spending review period. The funding will be used to reform the current network, to change the underlying economics, and so reverse the years of decline and secure its long-term future. I am grateful in particular to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury for his understanding, even in a tough spending round. I repeat, there will be no programme of closures under this Government and the Post Office will be able to invest, improve its offer and win new revenue streams.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Julian Huppert: Does my right hon. Friend share my sheer joy and satisfaction both about the money and about the idea that we will no longer have to campaign against Government closures of post offices? We can get on with supporting them in their work.

Vincent Cable: Yes, indeed. That is the outcome. For the past decade I and many on the Opposition Benches have been involved in fighting for our local post offices. In many cases, constituencies have seen the loss of a dozen post offices. That will come to an end.

Huw Irranca-Davies: On that very point. I am grateful for the clarity of the right hon. Gentleman's response, although the figure seems less than the support that the Labour Government put into the post office network. An individual in my constituency has just successfully kept a branch open with the investment of tens of thousands of pounds of his own money, as well as funds from the Welsh Assembly Government and some Post Office Ltd money. Will he be an independent trader under the umbrella of Post Office Ltd, or some sort of commercial, co-operative, mutual whatever? He has just put a lot of money in, and the Secretary of State does not seem to be clear.

Vincent Cable: I am surprised to hear Opposition Members speaking against mutualisation and co-operation. I thought that was at the heart of the Labour movement's values. We will consult on how, in practical terms, post office network becomes a mutual structure. I made that clear. By shifting us into the structural arguments again, the hon. Gentleman is taking away from the considerable importance of the announcement that has just been made, which is that the process of remorseless and endless closures-I think he has had seven in Ogmore-is going to come to an end.

Huw Irranca-Davies: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman is spraying around statistics of post office closures and, once again, he is getting them wrong. I realise that I may be out of order, but that is unforgivable.

Lindsay Hoyle: Let us clear this up. We both know that that is not a point of order. Many hon. Members want to speak. Spurious points of order do not help the Chamber. We need to get on with the debate. We may have a chance for everybody to put their opinions afterwards.

Vincent Cable: I will take one more intervention.

John Hemming: On the issue of the individual, private, sub-contracted post offices, does my right hon. Friend find it surprising that Labour Members cannot understand that those post offices will remain open as independent sub-contractors with a mutual network?

Vincent Cable: Yes. Labour Members seem to find the concept of an expanding, properly invested post office system a bit of a culture shock. They have got used to a decade of decline-they presided over it.

Tom Brake: Does my right hon. Friend believe that he has created enough scope for post offices such as the one in Beddington, which shut a number of years ago, to be reopened? In what circumstances does he see new post offices opening?

Vincent Cable: As I say, investment capital availability ultimately comes down to the individual decision of individual postmasters. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) pointed out, these are individual investment decisions, but the network will in future be put on a structurally sound, properly funded basis. That is the essence of the reforms that we are introducing.

Michael Weir: rose -

Vincent Cable: I will press on. The hon. Gentleman has had his say.
	In addition to funding, we are injecting new ideas. We have been re-thinking the role of post offices in providing Government and banking services, and we will be coming back shortly with a fuller statement on that problem, setting out some new and positive ideas which I hope will command support on both sides of the House and in the country.
	I would like to reassure the House with respect to the relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail. The Post Office is currently a subsidiary of Royal Mail, but they are separate companies and they are very different businesses. As part of our plans for both companies, the Bill will allow for the separation of Royal Mail and the Post Office. Separation will give the Post Office management greater freedom to focus on the branch network and providing new services, but I want to make it clear that in this case at least, separation is not a first step towards divorce.
	The Post Office and Royal Mail will continue to work closely together. Each company needs the other. Post offices carried out over 3 billion mail transactions for Royal Mail last year. The two companies are closely linked in the public mind, and are bound together by an overwhelming commercial imperative. There is currently a long-term contract in place between the two companies, and there will continue to be a long-term commercial contract in place. The chief executive of Royal Mail has said that it would be "unthinkable" that there will not always be a strong relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail.
	I shall move on to Royal Mail ownership and the processes involved in the sale of shares.

Julie Hilling: I am slightly confused by what the right hon. Gentleman has said. First, will all post offices remain open? Secondly, will the private company always have to do business with those post offices? Is that guaranteed for ever and ever?

Vincent Cable: No. The relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office rests on two things-first, on mutual interest. They have strong mutual interests and depend on each other. Secondly, there is a contractual relationship. This will not change as a result of the separation of the two. Public ownership did not secure the arrangement. It is secured by mutual interest and contractual obligation. That will continue.

John Redwood: Where the property is shared between the Post Office and Royal Mail, as it is in a number of important locations, is the intention to split the site, create separate title to different parts of the site and give each its own front door, or will they share the property?

Vincent Cable: Obviously, such detailed matters will need to be resolved as the process of separation continues. It is a practical issue and, as it is a commercial matter, Post Office and Royal Mail will look for the most sensible, practical, least cost arrangement.
	For the foreseeable future, Royal Mail will be the only company capable of providing the universal postal service. That means that if we want to continue to benefit from a universal service with uniform and affordable prices, we have to equip Royal Mail to survive, and indeed thrive. There is no choice. That was the conclusion of the original Hooper review commissioned by the Opposition, and his recent update for the coalition Government.

Malcolm Wicks: rose -

Vincent Cable: I will finish this section, then I will take the intervention from the right hon. Gentleman, who I know was a Minister and had close involvement with this matter.
	Some Members of the House will say that Royal Mail can modernise and survive while remaining in the public sector. They will say that Government can provide the funding that Royal Mail needs, and that the modernisation agreement in place between the union and the company is sufficient to stave off the decline in the market. That is not a view that I share. I did not share it in opposition and I do not share it now, nor is it shared by Richard Hooper or the company.
	Let me be clear. The Government are the wrong shareholder for the company. Given the Government's financial constraints, we cannot invest enough quickly enough, we cannot invest flexibly enough, and every investment that we make has to be cleared by the European Commission under state aid rules. Richard Hooper is also clear that Royal Mail cannot modernise properly, and cannot take the decisions that it needs to take, while it has the threat of political interference hanging over it.
	Private sector capital will bring with it private sector disciplines, which will allow the company to modernise faster to keep pace with the changes in the market. As the last Minister with responsibility for postal services wisely said:
	"Unless modernisation happens, the company will be ill equipped to deal with its challenges."-[ Official Report, 11 February 2009; Vol. 487, c. 1452.]
	The Bill will therefore lift the restrictions that currently exist on the sale of shares in Royal Mail.

Malcolm Wicks: For a range of reasons, there is a widespread acceptance that Royal Mail has to modernise. That should not be a source of controversy. But given that, according to a recent YouGov poll, 60% of the public wished the service to remain a public service, including a clear majority of the Minister's own party's supporters-voters-and Conservative supporters, with only 15% opting for privatisation, why have the Government rejected the option of modernising a public service? We have modernised public services before. Modernisation and public service can go together.

Vincent Cable: That has been happening for 13 years and it has not solved the problem. The problem is deteriorating and the Government cannot provide the investment capital. The right hon. Gentleman is right about public opinion. The public are concerned about the universal service obligation. That is the essence of public service, and it will be protected. The protections will be strengthened under the Bill in a way that I will explain in a moment. When the public understand that it is the universal service obligation, rather than public ownership itself, that is being maintained, they will have considerable reassurance.

Roger Gale: I shall support Second Reading because Royal Mail is broke. It has to be fixed, which will take a considerable amount of money, and the Bill is the only way forward. The Secretary of State may consider this a peripheral issue but, since Queen Victoria, Royal Mail has borne the royal imprimatur. My understanding is that under European regulations, it is not possible to restrict ownership of Royal Mail once it goes on to the open market, so it could well be sold to the Dutch or the Germans. Notwithstanding the provisions of clause 60, how will the royal charter be maintained?

Vincent Cable: We certainly do not have any doctrinal or other objections to foreign ownership. I spend a lot of my time trying to attract foreign investors to the country, but, as far as the royal charter is concerned, it is clear that the association with the monarchy is probably the most powerful brand that the company can possibly have, and there will be every interest in the new owners continuing to maintain it.
	We need to be careful of specific issues. We need to be careful that the new owners do not abuse the royal association, and we are discussing with the palace how we build in those protections. The monarch will continue to have the right, which we are also building in, to ensure that any new stamp, for example, is cleared by the palace. So, the royal interests in the matter are fully protected. We are very sensitive to them and to their importance.
	Let me return to the core of the argument, which is the sale of shares in Royal Mail. That is a departure from the previous Government's Bill, but I should remind the House that the purpose of the Bill before us is not the sale of shares in Royal Mail for its own sake, but rather, as I pointed out to the right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) a few moments ago, the protection of the universal postal service and Royal Mail as the only company capable of providing it.
	It is therefore right that we allow for the flexibility to seek the investment required to secure the future of Royal Mail and the universal postal service. So, we see no reason at this stage to set an arbitrary target for how much we must sell, by when and by which method. Those are critical decisions that need to be taken with proper advice and in the full knowledge of market conditions, assessing both value for money and the company's needs.
	Of course, Parliament will be kept informed of those decisions, and the Bill requires a report to Parliament once a decision has been taken to begin a sale process. I hope to be in a position to report to Parliament on the sale process in the first half of this Parliament. In the longer term, I do not believe that there is a need for the Government to keep a stake in Royal Mail, but I will ensure that the Government have the flexibility to ensure the right outcome for taxpayers, for Royal Mail and for its employees.
	Let me turn to the interests and concerns of the employees. The employees are critical to Royal Mail's ability to modernise and thrive, and it will come as no surprise to Members when I say that Royal Mail has a history of poor industrial relations. Members may have noticed that Unite announced two days ago that it would ballot Royal Mail managers on industrial action. That recent development aside, I have been heartened by some of the positive steps that have been taken to improve industrial relations-in particular, the agreement with the Communication Workers Union on the modernisation of the business. The agreement accepted that, unfortunately, job losses would be associated with the modernisation. It accepted, too, that there would need to be changes to working practices, and that mail centres would close. The plan has already been agreed with the CWU, and the company is implementing it now.

Kate Hoey: One depot that has been suggested for closure is the very large one at Nine Elms in Vauxhall. There has certainly been no agreement in London that it should close, and everybody will fight its closure very hard, because it would be just crazy for everything-lorries and vans-to go in and out of London, adding to pollution.

Vincent Cable: I am not familiar with the details of the argument in that case. I was referring to the fact that there has been a constructive relationship between the union and management on modernisation, but such issues do exist, and they are essentially commercial ones that must be dealt with by management and their employees in the normal way. None the less, I would be interested to know whether there is a specific role in the matter for the Government, and I shall respond to the hon. Lady on that.
	So, I acknowledge that there will be job losses. The company is losing money and the market is declining, and that is regrettable, but it is unavoidable. The question that we need to pose is, what happens if we do not take action? What happens if Royal Mail fails and the market collapses? That is the current trend. I know that the CWU has been in Parliament today, talking to many hon. Members about their views, and I and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, who has responsibility for postal affairs, met the CWU to discuss Royal Mail. We look forward to continuing to talk to its representatives as the Bill goes through Parliament.
	However, I have one thing to say to the union directly today: the worst thing for its members, Royal Mail's employees, would be to do nothing, because that is the real threat to jobs in Royal Mail. The employees of Royal Mail also deserve better than constant battles between the union and the management. They deserve to be properly engaged in the business that they work for, and to have a real stake in its future. That is the only way in which we will break for ever the cycle of antagonism and mistrust that has bedevilled the company. The Bill therefore requires the creation of an employee share scheme, which will hold at least 10% of the equity in Royal Mail in future. That is very far from being a token gesture; it is nothing less than the largest employee share scheme of any major privatisation.
	The employees of Royal Mail will also be concerned about their pensions, and they have good reason to be, because Royal Mail's pension deficit is huge, growing and volatile. Put simply, it is not sustainable. Even the recent agreement between the pension fund trustees and the company is fragile. It requires that Royal Mail pay off its deficit over 38 years, which is at least twice as long as any other UK company's repayment plan, and the pensions regulator has already said that it has substantial concerns about the agreement.

Jim Cunningham: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Vincent Cable: I am going to go on to explain the new mechanism. Would the hon. Gentleman like to wait until I reach the end, or does he wish to intervene on that particular point?

Jim Cunningham: On that particular point.

Vincent Cable: All right.

Jim Cunningham: On pensions, what will happen to the assets, and what is their value? I am told that the pension plan has assets of something like £26 billion. Is that true?

Vincent Cable: Yes, it is true, but the liabilities are much bigger. I shall explain in a moment how we will deal with the assets.
	The pension deficit, which is the starting point, threatens the very existence of the company. It is draining cash from Royal Mail's modernisation and preventing it from undertaking the reforms it needs to survive. That is why the Government have to take action today. As part of the sale, the Bill will allow the Government to take on responsibility for the pension deficit. We will not only address the deficit, but reduce the size of the Royal Mail pension plan to a more manageable level for the business. The liabilities of Royal Mail are more than 50 times annual profits. By comparison, the liabilities of the average FTSE 100 company are closer to one times profits-an enormous difference.
	We intend to reduce the plan to about one tenth of its size today. We will do so by creating a new public sector pension scheme that will assume responsibility for paying out the past pension benefits of Royal Mail employees. In effect, all members of the Royal Mail pension plan will have their past service moved to a new Government scheme like that of the NHS or teachers. It is the same solution to Royal Mail's pension problems as the previous Government proposed in their 2009 Bill.
	I know that hon. Members will be concerned about the detail of the proposed pension arrangements, and we will provide a note to Parliament in order to explain the practical effects of those very complex changes, but I should like to reassure the House on two points in relation to pensions.
	First, let me be clear that this solution is by far the best outcome for the employees of Royal Mail. The action that we are taking in the Bill will ensure that all the benefits that employees have earned will be safeguarded. The benefits that become the responsibility of the Government will be protected in the Bill, and all members of the Royal Mail pension plan will benefit from that support-Post Office and Royal Mail employees alike.
	As a bottom line, the Bill places an obligation on the Government to ensure that our action leaves members in no worse a position than they were in before. This means that the amount of benefits that they receive will be at least as good as if the Government had not acted. There will also be a restriction on the Government's ability to make to the new public scheme in future any changes that would adversely affect members. The Government intend to use that restriction to reflect as closely as possible the current protection that members of the pension plan are afforded under section 67 of the Pensions Act 1995.
	Secondly, the measure is not a Government plan to massage the Government's accounts, for the very simple reason that the Royal Mail pension plan has a deficit of £8 billion. That is the cost to the Government of implementing the solution on behalf of the company and its employees. Let me be clear: the Government are taking on liabilities that are much bigger than the assets. I have seen reports-perhaps this is what the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) was referring to-that the Government will be selling off the Royal Mail pension plan's £24 billion of assets. It is certainly true that the surplus assets above the level needed to leave the ongoing pension plan fully funded will be transferred to the Government. It is also true that these transferred assets will be sold because it makes no sense for Government to sit on a massive investment portfolio.
	I, for one, do not wish to see central Government taking such a huge investment risk with taxpayers' money. So yes, we will sell the portfolio of assets which transfer across to Government, and this is likely to involve over £20 billion of asset sales over time. But the important point-it is absolutely crucial to this argument-is that we will be making payments to members of the Royal Mail pension plan for at least the next 50 years.

David Anderson: Can the Secretary of State explain why the liabilities are so huge? Is part of the reason the fact that Royal Mail took a 13-year contributions holiday in the 1980s and 1990s?

Vincent Cable: I understand that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is very familiar with this and has spent a lot of time talking to the pension trustees. There is a whole set of reasons behind this deficit, one of which is that employees are living longer; another is that the pension fund made some rather bad investment decisions. There are contributory factors. But we are where we are: there is a massive deficit and we have to deal with it; that is the centre of the problem.
	Let me add that the Government's support for the Royal Mail pension plan is subject to state aid approval by the European Commission. The House can rest assured that we will be going to Brussels to make this case in the strongest possible terms.
	Let there be no doubt: this is a good deal for the employees of Royal Mail. In almost all important respects, it is exactly the same deal as that in my predecessor's Bill-but coupled with the legal requirement for employee shares, it is a much better deal for employees.

Malcolm Wicks: rose -

Vincent Cable: It is a solution on which I hope that Members in all parts of the House can agree, including the right hon. Gentleman.

Malcolm Wicks: On the pension issue, which is so crucial, Labour Members will want to scrutinise the plan and the idea of selling off the assets in return for guarantees. It seems to me, however, that that plan, whether it is the right one or not, could still be carried out if the service remained a public service. I do not see why it is intrinsically and inextricably linked with privatisation. Something like this needs to be done anyway, whether or not this is the right model.

Vincent Cable: Of course it does need to be done anyway, but as I explained a few moments ago, the key point about bringing in private capital is that it brings in investment as well as new and better methods of management. There are separate issues involved. However, the right hon. Gentleman is quite right: the pension fund deficit needs to be dealt with. If it were not dealt with-if the thing just continued-there would be a real danger that it would contribute to the collapse of the company: that is why we have had to intervene.
	I apologise to the House for going on for such a long time, but a large part of that has been taken up with interventions, as I was anxious to ensure that Members who had concerns were able to raise them.
	The last section of my speech relates to reform of the regulatory regime. At the heart of this Bill, just like the last Bill, is protection of the universal postal service. The Bill will maintain the universal postal service at its current levels-that means six-days-a-week delivery and collection at uniform, affordable prices. I would like to reassure the House that I have no intention of downgrading this service. I know that some Members have been concerned about their constituents receiving a reduced service, and I share that concern. I have therefore ensured that the Bill contains new and stronger protections around the service than is currently the case-stronger protections, too, than were in the Bill put forward by our predecessors.
	Members may not be aware of this, but the Government already have the power to reduce the minimum requirements of the universal postal service without even requiring a debate in Parliament. Through the European Communities Act 1972, it can reduce them to the minimum requirements of the European postal directive-that means five- days-a-week delivery and no requirement for uniform pricing. I do not think that that is an acceptable situation. Another way of putting it is that we have European regulation to protect the universal service obligation. This is one occasion where we are arguing in favour of gold-plating; indeed, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has pointed out, we are platinum-plating this particular set of protections.

Robert Halfon: I very much welcome the reforms that the Secretary of State has announced today and the commitment to a universal postal system. However, will he allow other companies also to provide a universal postal system if they so wish?

Vincent Cable: We cannot do it in that way. Of course, other companies have access to the market, subject to strict conditions, but we envisage that Royal Mail will continue to be the universal service provider: that is the basis on which we are proceeding.
	The Bill puts in place three new safeguards: the platinum-plating, so to speak. First, the Bill ensures that no proposal to reduce the minimum requirements of the universal postal service can be proposed until the new regulator, Ofcom, has conducted a review of user needs. Secondly, any proposal to reduce the requirements of the universal postal service must be subject to a majority vote in both Houses of Parliament. Thirdly, any reduction in the minimum requirements cannot change the uniform nature of the service. The Bill states that the service and the price must be the same across the whole of the UK. I hope that Members in all parts of the House will support these new protections for the universal postal service.

Glenda Jackson: Earlier, the Secretary of State said that one of the central issues in the modernisation and advancement of Royal Mail and the Post Office was-I am paraphrasing-the removal of political intervention, but he is now talking about a contract that is surely still politically in the hands of politicians. How can he possibly stand there and guarantee that there will be no changes whatsoever to the universal service? I cannot, for the life of me, imagine any private company signing up for a contract that is immutable, which is surely what he is saying the changes will bring about.

Vincent Cable: I am not making these commitments as political commitments. They are enshrined in regulation-regulation that will be strengthened and has the force of law. Of course, that is political in the widest sense if one regards this Parliament as political. The protections are going to be legal and regulatory; this is not a matter of political discretion for individual politicians.
	We will also be taking other measures to secure the universal postal service. The greatest threat to postal services comes from the decline in mail volumes and the rise of e-mail and the internet. It therefore makes sense for the postal sector to be regulated alongside the broader communications market. For that reason, the Bill will transfer responsibility for the regulation of the postal services sector from Postcomm to Ofcom. Ofcom has a deep understanding of the wider communications markets and will be well placed to take decisions as regulator of postal services. The Bill will also give Ofcom a primary duty to exercise its functions as regulator of postal services in a way that it considers will secure the universal postal service-and it will need to consider the financial viability and efficiency of the universal service in taking its decisions.
	We want to ensure that the new regulatory framework is proportionate to the needs of the market. We want to allow for rapid deregulation where there is competition. All mail providers need to be able to operate in a fair and effective market as soon as possible. As an ultimate protection for the universal service, the Bill includes provisions for special arrangements should a universal service provider be at risk of entering into insolvency proceedings-a remote risk but one that we have to consider. The arrangements would allow the appointment of a postal administrator whose objective would be to ensure that the universal service is maintained. We do not expect ever to have to use these provisions, but they provide an additional safeguard for the universal service. These measures mirror those that have been taken in the energy and water sectors.

Andrew George: rose-

Vincent Cable: I will take one more intervention and then move to a conclusion.

Andrew George: I am much reassured by what the Secretary of State is saying. Further to my earlier intervention, I am merely seeking reassurance that the access agreements between the new Royal Mail and its competitors will be set in a regulatory framework that gives it a fair crack of the whip when negotiating the terms and the price. Under the present arrangement, Royal Mail is clearly, in effect, subsidising its competitors because it is delivering their mail.

Vincent Cable: I believe I have given my hon. Friend that reassurance. Royal Mail will not subsidise its competitors, protections will be built in and there will be a genuine regulatory level playing field in a way that has not been quite true in the past.
	Previous attempts at legislation on Royal Mail have not had a great history of success. I anticipate that there may be some opposition to the Bill both inside this House and elsewhere, although I believe that after 20 years of false starts, there is now a willingness to do what needs to be done. There is no easy way out, and the problems that Royal Mail faces will not go away. There will be no winners if we fail to act. Royal Mail's employees will face continued uncertainty over their pensions and their jobs, customers will face a declining service and taxpayers will continue to bear the risks. Ultimately, Richard Hooper was clear that without this action, Royal Mail would fail.
	Royal Mail needs this Bill. The company says so, Richard Hooper says so, the previous Government said so and I say so. I therefore strongly commend this Bill to the House.

Lindsay Hoyle: I inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment.

John Denham: For more than 350 years, the Royal Mail has delivered the post to homes and businesses across the United Kingdom. Created by the Crown, for all that time it has been to all intents and purposes a public service run in the public interest, and it has always been seen as a huge and valuable national asset, run in the national interest. Today's Bill would change all that. It would lead to the total sale of the Royal Mail, and a huge sum of public money would be spent to enable a private sale to take place. I believe that that sum has just gone up again by a substantial amount.
	The Bill may mean the Royal Mail, this national asset, passing into foreign ownership or to short-term investors interested only in the quickest possible profit. For the first time ever, it has to provide for a special procedure to deal with the insolvency of a private Royal Mail.

Robert Smith: The right hon. Gentleman talks about Royal Mail being owned in the national interest and about profits in the private sector, but was not the great burden hanging over it when it was owned in the national interest that its profits were taken by the Treasury for other purposes, rather than being invested in modernising it to let it compete effectively in the market that his Government forced on it?

John Denham: The hon. Gentleman may have a point about the use of those profits, but I would rather they went to the Treasury or to the Royal Mail, not to a private company whose owners lie overseas. The defence of the national interest lies with public ownership.
	Today's Bill provides, for the first time ever, for the breaking up of the Royal Mail, with different organisations providing the universal postal service in different parts of the country. It breaks the umbilical link between the Royal Mail and the network of local post offices prized by residents and communities up and down the country, and does so in a way that threatens the future of thousands of local post offices. It is a very serious Bill, and it must be considered seriously and in detail in the weeks and months ahead.
	Of course, serious discussion of the Bill must acknowledge why the coalition Government have concluded, as the previous Labour Government did, that doing absolutely nothing is not an option. The competition for the services offered by Royal Mail, including from new ways of communicating, has changed more dramatically than anyone envisaged even 10 years ago. Last year, it reported a drop of 7% in letter volumes. Other operators have been taking business upstream faster than expected. Some 87% of all mail in the UK is sent by businesses to people at home or to other businesses, and competitors have already won more than 60% of the upstream, pre-sorted bulk mail market, delivering their customers' mail into the Royal Mail system for final delivery.
	Over the fast-approaching horizon will come the full impact of technological change-e-mail, web-based advertising, text messaging, mobile phones and all the other modern ways of communicating. The worldwide postal market is expected to decline by 25% to 40% over the next five years. The problems with the pension fund, which had their origin in the 13-year pension holiday until 2001, have mounted. There was, therefore, a consensus that action needed to be taken.

Kate Hoey: My right hon. Friend has mentioned a number of issues, but he has not drawn attention to the EU directive on postal services, which allowed companies such as TNT to cream off all the profitable parts of Royal Mail and leave the universal service within the public sector. That directive was agreed to. Does that not show that we should examine EU directives a little more carefully in future?

John Denham: All EU directives should always be examined very carefully as a matter of principle. There is perhaps a debate to be had about whether a six-day service exceeds the strict requirements of the EU directive, but my hon. Friend raises an important point. If she will allow me, I will return a little later to how competition has developed in practice and whether we have a level playing field.
	There was consensus about the nature of the action that needed to be taken. The Royal Mail needed to be transformed to become more efficient and competitive, and that transformation would need new management and vastly improved industrial relations. The taxpayer would need to take on the liabilities of the pension fund, and access to investment was needed.
	However, the central question that the House must ask today and in the coming weeks is whether the Secretary of State's way forward is the best. We will oppose the Bill, although we do not oppose every element in it. We believe that abandoning the commitment to keep Royal Mail as a publicly owned organisation is wrong. Clause 1 abandons that commitment, which was restated by the Labour Government. That will inevitably threaten the public interest, from the moment the sales process starts to the long-term future of both Royal Mail and the Post Office.
	Public ownership of the Royal Mail provides the ultimate safeguard for the public interest. It ensures that even if other policy fails, it is not too late to defend the interests of the public, whether by protecting the delivery of letters six days a week to every home in the UK at a standard price, or by guaranteeing the business that can sustain a network of local post offices. Public ownership can ensure that public money is invested for public benefit, not private profit.
	The front-line defence of the public interests lies, of course, in the legal framework in which Royal Mail and the Post Office operate. The Bill will transfer responsibility for regulation from Postcomm to Ofcom, as did Labour's Bill. We will need to consider carefully in Committee whether a regulatory framework designed for a publicly owned company remains as well designed for the foreign-owned or private equity-backed company that might soon run Royal Mail.
	The relationship between the public interest and Royal Mail is not governed by regulation alone. Local post offices need a continuing public subsidy, and that in turn depends on the commercial relationship between Royal Mail and the post offices. Both those issues have properly concerned Ministers and Parliament in the past. In some crucial areas, such as the relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office, the Bill will weaken the ability of Ministers and Parliament to act in the public interest. In other areas in which Parliament might wish to defend the public interest, such as the universal service obligation, it leaves too much discretion for the regulators and Ministers to waive the public interest.
	The Secretary of State made no case for why he had decided to go beyond the limited equity stake that was proposed, not without controversy, by the last Labour Government. I wait with interest to hear the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), if he catches your eye, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Secretary of State made no case for the full privatisation of Royal Mail.
	As the Secretary of State said, we recognise parts of the Bill from our own legislation, and we broadly support parts of it, including employee share ownership. The possible mutualisation of the post office network deserves positive examination at the very least.
	I have set out the changes that everyone agreed were needed, but in truth many people thought that Royal Mail could not change while it was a public company. However, change has happened. Considerable progress has been made, and more is under way. An important agreement was reached this March between the Communication Workers Union and Royal Mail supporting the £2 billion modernisation plan, £1.2 billion of which has now been spent. CWU members supported the agreement by a 2:1 majority.
	Differences are being felt in operations. The opening hours of delivery offices have been extended and new generation letter-sorting machines have been installed. There are new machines so that mail is sorted for the exact route that postmen and women walk, and there is better equipment, including hand-held devices to track and record items of mail. Of course, the pace of change must be maintained, but in an industry dogged by difficult industrial relations, both the CWU and management should take credit for the start that has been made.
	Our debates on Royal Mail have for some time been informed by the Richard Hooper reports of 2008 and 2010. Two years ago, Hooper's report called for two changes: the injection of private capital and, closely related to that, the involvement of private sector management. However, he rejected full privatisation, saying that that
	"option would only be appropriate and feasible if modernisation had been completed."
	His recent report also identified a need for private sector capital, but was markedly more confident about the quality of existing management and the capacity for change given the changes that had already taken place. The 2010 report states:
	"The specific need for corporate experience is reduced today".
	It used to be said that Royal Mail could not change without an injection of private investment and management, but change has been possible. The argument now seems to be that change is needed so that Royal Mail can be sold, but that is simply not true.
	The House needs to ask what the real costs could be. The public are making a heavy investment in preparing the postal services offered by Royal Mail for sale, including through a £2 billion loan to fund the modernisation process. In addition, the subsidy for the post office network was already set to increase from £150 million to £180 million next year, and we heard today of a further investment in sub-post offices, to which I will return. The Bill also leaves the taxpayer assuming the huge liabilities of the pension fund while Royal Mail benefits from a reduced contribution.
	That is a huge public investment in preparing Royal Mail for sale, yet the returns look pretty low-according to media speculation, the sale price will be around £700 million, meaning a one-off income of less than £1 billion in return for costs of many billions. The Secretary of State did not make clear the timing of the changes. I simply point out that if he goes early, he will probably get the lowest possible price, but the later he goes, the more essential it will be to complete the transformation of Royal Mail, because as he said, Royal Mail cannot simply stand still and mark time. There is no relationship between the change that is necessary and his desire to sell the whole of Royal Mail.
	As the Government's own briefing makes clear, a fully efficient and competitive Royal Mail could generate a very significant return. Companies such as Deutsche Post in Germany achieve profit margins of 13% from their mail operations, even though they face greater end-to-end competition than Royal Mail does in the UK. There are similar profit margins in the postal services of Finland, Austria, France and other European countries. Some are private and some public. That shows what efficient companies can do. However, the Bill excludes the public from any gain from a transformed Royal Mail.

Richard Graham: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how much investment the German post office has had in the past few years? I believe that the figure is £15 billion. Is he suggesting that the UK Government have £15 billion for such investment?

John Denham: Richard Hooper's point, which I do not fundamentally contest, is that additional access to capital is necessary, which may well need to be private capital, but that is not the same as making a case for the total privatisation of Royal Mail, which is what the Government are doing. Government Members need to defend that.

Marcus Jones: What share of Royal Mail does the right hon. Gentleman think should be sold?

John Denham: The previous Labour Government floated proposals for the sale of a minority stake. Given the changes that have taken place in Royal Mail, there may be ways of accessing private capital that do not depend on an equity stake. Some partnerships of that sort might well be highly desirable, but the question is whether anything the Secretary of State said made the case for a total sale of the company. I listened to him very carefully, but I did not hear a single sentence that made a case for clause 1, which is the basis on which we oppose the Bill.

Jim Cunningham: It does not take long for employees to sell their shares, so selling shares to employees would create another imbalance.

John Denham: I understand my hon. Friend's point, but the Opposition should explore positively, including in discussions with the unions, how employee share ownership might work. Models of trust-based employee share ownership would avoid the risks he describes. It would clearly be nonsense to provide shares to employees that could be sold on within a few months, which happened in many previous privatisations, to everyone's great regret. We should look at the conditions, but I agree that it would be a complete nonsense to create the conditions he describes.

Jim Cunningham: I remember the privatisation of Rolls-Royce. The employees were given shares, but rapidly sold them.

John Denham: Clearly, any measure that allowed that kind of swift onward sale, resulting essentially in 100% private ownership of Royal Mail, would explode the Government's rhetoric on the Bill. I can assure my hon. Friend that we will look at the proposals in great detail in Committee.

John Pugh: The right hon. Gentleman makes a rational and intelligent case, but if the Bill proposed a majority stake for private finance-say 51 or 55%-would it be possible to protect the public interest?

John Denham: That is an important point. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will return in a moment to how majority sale or full sale would shift the balance of power against the public interest during the sales process.

Jim Cunningham: Will my right hon. Friend give way?

John Denham: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will happily take another intervention from him when I come to my point on protecting the public interest during the sale.
	I said that the Bill excludes the public from any potential long-term gain from a transformed Royal Mail, but in addition the benefits could go entirely to overseas interests. Frankly, I am surprised how sanguine the Secretary of State is at that prospect, because faced with the sale of Cadbury to Kraft, he said:
	"It is particularly galling...that state-owned RBS should part fund this takeover when it is clearly not in the interests of the UK economy."
	I must point out that the Secretary of State is today effectively using taxpayers' money to transfer the ownership of Royal Mail overseas.
	There are good reasons to worry about the public interest during the sales process. On one side will be potential buyers, who will have every interest in lobbying for the maximum commercial freedom for the operation and for the minimum of social obligation. The other side-we might like to think this means the Secretary of State, but it means the Treasury-has an interest in gaining the highest price. Both sides, therefore, will argue to cut social obligation to a minimum. It is not difficult to anticipate the outcome of that situation. I suspect that one reason why the Secretary of State was able to say so little on the long-term interest of Royal Mail in the post office network is precisely that he is caught uncomfortably in the vice between the Treasury and potential buyers.

Michael Weir: I am listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman and agree with a lot of what he says. He mentioned the pressures of the sale. Has he seen the letter from the current chief executive officer of Royal Mail, who argues for loosening social obligations now? Is that an indication of how things will go?

John Denham: I have seen that letter, and I will refer to it a little later, if I may.

Michael Connarty: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in previous discussions about possible privatisations, no interest was expressed by any of the companies, either in the UK or abroad, in running mail services? Are we not likely to have a situation in which, basically, some equity finance company will borrow large amounts of money to buy Royal Mail and then load it up with masses of debt? There is no operator challenging Royal Mail's ability to deliver the services that it currently delivers.

John Denham: That is certainly a real risk, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I return to the point that I made earlier. If the Government are serious about rejecting potential purchasers who they think are wrong or who offer a poor price, the Government will have to deal with the problem of transforming Royal Mail in the meantime. They cannot let it simply stand still, given all the commercial pressures. My fear is that the Government will go to the wrong place, with an inappropriate sale at an inappropriate price, because of the figure that has been pencilled in-although it is hard to find it in the detail-in the comprehensive spending review, and that this would happen irrespective of the long-term interests of the public in this country.
	That pressure to reduce the social obligations brings me to one of the central concerns regarding the public interest: the relationship between a privatised Royal Mail and the network of local post offices. We oppose the Bill in part because of its central aim, which is the sale of Royal Mail and the breaking of the key contractual link between Royal Mail and the post offices. There are around 11,500 post offices. The Royal Mail Group is required by licence to support 4,000 post offices. The managing director of Post Office Ltd told a parliamentary Committee that a commercially viable network would have only 4,000 offices.
	The previous Labour Government made provision to keep a further 7,500 branches open. They are supported by an annual public subsidy of £150 million, which is due to rise to £180 million next year, and by business that is guaranteed to Royal Mail through the inter-business agreement. The Royal Mail business that is guaranteed by the IBA is crucial to the current viability of the post office network. Leaving aside the public subsidy, Royal Mail business generates 37% of the income of local post offices. However, the IBA could end immediately under this Bill when Royal Mail is sold. A privatised Royal Mail could simply take the work elsewhere. As Consumer Focus-the organisation that the Secretary of State wishes to silence-says in its briefings,
	"following privatisation of Royal Mail, subsequent contracts would require a competitive tender process with no guarantee that Post Office Ltd would retain this contract".
	The Bill provides no mechanism to ensure that the continued long-term use of the post office network is an integral part of Royal Mail. That would be a disaster for non-profitable post offices in rural and urban areas alike. The Bill could have defined post offices as access points for the universal postal service. Consumer Focus says that the Bill could have specified the number of post office branches to remain. However, the Bill does none of those things. That is a fatal flaw. The axe of uncertainty hangs over thousands of post offices, which puts a huge question mark over the interesting and attractive concept of a post office mutual, because mutuals can go out of business too if their income is taken away. Hooper concluded that the Post Office should remain publically owned, saying:
	"Given the social obligations of the Post Office, there is little prospect that the network will be sustained on a fully commercial basis."
	However, a mutual is a commercial organisation, subject to commercial logic, and without guarantees of income, it will fail.
	The Secretary of State spoke about an additional investment of, I think he said, £1.34 billion. I acknowledge that, although it would perhaps have been useful to have more detail. We will need to explore that figure in greater detail than we can this afternoon, as we have no detail now, although it is clearly a large amount. We will need to know the answer to a few obvious questions. Does that money come from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills budget that was set out in the comprehensive spending review last week, or can it be found elsewhere in the CSR? Does the Secretary of State intend to continue the annual subsidy beyond the CSR? Is the making available of that money linked in any way to the participation of sub-post offices in the formation of a mutual, or will it go to every sub-post office, whether or not it wishes to take part in a mutual? Will the beneficiaries be only current post offices, or could the money be made available to new entrants and companies that wish to enter the market for providing local post offices for the first time?
	The Secretary of State talked about building up the business that is done through the Post Office, which I welcome. Doing so would build on work done by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East on post banking and other areas, but we need more detail. I acknowledge that the figure that the Secretary of State cited would be a very large investment, but we need to know much more about it, and I hope that we will learn more before the Bill goes into Committee. However, I return to the same, fundamental point. Investment in the network without the guarantees of future business simply sets the network up to fail and puts a question mark over the public value for money of the investment now being made. I worry that the proposed mutual may ultimately be seen as a cynical attempt to shift responsibility for future closures of post offices on to the shoulders of the mutual owners of the post office network.
	Let me make a few other points. Despite what I have set out, the Bill makes it clear that many risks still lie with the public, in addition to those that I have listed. The Bill results in the nationalisation of risk and the privatisation of profit-a phrase that the Secretary of State may well remember from the recent past. Part 4 sets out the provisions for taxpayers to step in through administration if a privatised Royal Mail becomes insolvent. That is a necessary part of the Bill, given the coalition's intention to sell Royal Mail, but it should kill the idea that once Royal Mail is privatised, the taxpayer will no longer need to worry about or bear any expense for failure. Clauses 34, 35 and 43 create the possibility for the universal service obligation to be split between different operators and for there to be different levels of universal service obligation in different parts of the country. In turn, that makes it possible in practice for Royal Mail to be split up once in private ownership, creating the risk of a commercial dynamic that will make it difficult to maintain the same quality of postal services throughout the UK.
	The other major issue of customer concern is the maintenance of the six-day universal service. The Bill gives Ofcom the power to make a universal service direction, and in principle this must include the current level of provision for collections and deliveries. However, the Secretary of State has given himself unilateral and unqualified discretion to remove services from Ofcom's direction if he takes the view that Ofcom's order is too extensive. Similarly, if Ofcom were minded to order a universal service provider to maintain the current post office network, the Secretary of State can overrule it. The Secretary of State has given himself the power to reduce services, but not to extend them. That tells us what he is thinking.
	Finally, it is in all our interests to have a Post Office that operates as efficiently and cost-effectively as possible. We have recognised the need for private sector investment in the past, and it is likely that this will be needed in future. Now that there is less emphasis on changing the management, it seems that a wider range of approaches to engaging private capital can and should be explored, but I do not believe that the need for private capital justifies the privatisation that is proposed today.
	It is also essential that the Government are clear about the future burden of regulation designed to allow competitors into the market. Many argue that that now imposes a real and unnecessary cost on Royal Mail. During its mandate, Postcomm chose to apply a challenging competitive regime to a near-monopoly organisation. Today, that regulatory regime applies to many parts of Royal Mail's activities that are open to intense competition. In some areas, Royal Mail is forced to carry mail on behalf of its competitors at well below cost price, and the market share taken by new entrants is certainly much larger than predicted. I know that the figures are contested, but Royal Mail told Postcomm in August that it was subsidising new players in the upstream market at a cost of £100 million a year. Does that regulatory regime make commercial or competitive sense any more?
	Crucially, what guidance will Ministers give to Ofcom? Potential buyers will want to know that now. Without a guarantee of more commercial freedom where competition is already strong, Royal Mail will be much harder to sell. By the same token, however, greater commercial freedom for a publicly owned Royal Mail would enable it to generate a higher income. I hope that all Members on both sides of the House will agree that it would be completely unacceptable for Ministers or regulators to offer greater freedom to a privatised Royal Mail than they are prepared to offer a publicly owned Royal Mail.
	If the House is being asked to choose between a privatised, foreign-owned Royal Mail and a publicly owned Royal Mail, it must do so on a fair and level playing field involving a publicly owned Royal Mail enjoying the same level of regulatory freedom, and the same financial freedom and ability to reduce outgoings that comes with the taxpayer assuming pension obligations. The transformation of that publicly owned Royal Mail must also be well under way, and it must be able to explore a wider range of ways of raising the private capital that it might need. I invite the House to oppose the Bill.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. Many Members wish to speak, and I remind them that Mr Speaker has decided to impose a six-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches.

Brian Binley: The House needs to recognise that the Post Office is a bust flush-

Michael Connarty: Rubbish!

Brian Binley: It is absolutely bust! In fact, the previous Government recognised that and tried to enact a Bill, but they did not have the courage to carry it through. So we want no lessons from Labour Members. The Post Office is a bust flush. Its management needs rejuvenating, its work force are demoralised and its pension fund is in massive deficit. If that does not add up to a company that is totally off the rails, then I do not know what does. It would do the Opposition good to recognise that fact, rather than pontificating about a matter that they dared not deal with.
	The Post Office faces a massive challenge. Volumes have declined enormously since 2005, and they are now down by 13 million units per day. Good God! If any other business faced that kind of decline, it would instantly recognise that it was bust; it would not need me to tell it. The Post Office is now 40% less efficient than its European competitors, and its modernisation programme is proceeding exceptionally slowly.

Edward Leigh: Does my hon. Friend agree that if I had been allowed to privatise the Post Office when I was the Minister with responsibility for it 17 years ago, we would now have a world-beating international company earning huge riches for this country? That was a wasted opportunity, and we must never fail again. We should privatise it as soon as possible.

Brian Binley: My hon. Friend was a wise prophet in a House that failed to listen to him, and that is a great pity. I accept his point totally.
	The truth is that something needs to be done, and that was accepted by the previous Government. I first came across this matter when it was presented to the then Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Select Committee in 2008. That Committee's report highlighted the importance of the organisation to our local communities. It recognised that the poor, the elderly and the disadvantaged relied heavily on the Post Office, but it was not only disadvantaged people who felt that way. Small and medium-sized businesses also felt that the Post Office played an important part in the way they ran their businesses. Research by Postcomm estimates that the social value of the post offices up and down the country runs to about £10 billion. The case for the network is clear, well made and, I believe, totally understood by the Opposition. Sadly, however, they ran away from the issue.
	There is a great need to heighten, increase and force through technical development. Of course, that could not happen in the past. Hooper said that the Royal Mail needed to modernise, improve its management and expand its range of services. I believe that the Bill will achieve all those objectives.
	The relationship between management and work force needs to be improved-and the problem is not all the fault of the unions by a long chalk. Previous management, I believe, acted in a bullying way that did nothing for good industrial relations-and I said so at the time, as did my colleagues on the Select Committee. This is one reason why I came to the conclusion that there was a massive need for a real injection of good-quality management into the Post Office.

Michael Connarty: I just wonder where the hon. Gentleman has been. I happen to be secretary of the communication workers group in this Parliament, although unlike my predecessor I have never been a communications worker. Massive changes to the agreement took place in March. Where else in Europe can we find a management that is willing to work with the trade unions? In all other places, they have banned trade unions from their premises. These firms are absolutely out of order in their treatment of their workers.

Brian Binley: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concerns. When I talked about senior management, I meant very senior management indeed. The lesson should go out to the whole House that bringing in from the private sector people who are sometimes seen as bully boys is not the best way to produce good industrial relations. That is, in fact, what happened. I see the hon. Gentleman nodding; I am glad he agrees with me.

Jim Cunningham: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall, as I do, that the previous chief executive of the Royal Mail was a very difficult man for Members to meet.

Brian Binley: I had the distinction-perhaps that is not the best word-of meeting the chief executive in question, and I read some of his letters to the work force. I have to say that if I had been a member of that work force, I would have been horrified to receive those letters. If they had been circulated in a company that I had anything to do with, I would have done my very best to bring the gentleman in question to book. I hope that my answer will enable the hon. Gentleman to understand that I too share his concerns.
	We need a massive change in management. I believe that the Bill is designed to achieve that and might well succeed, but we still have not had the answers we need to provide any certitude in that direction. We are dealing with a pension deficit in the region of £10.4 billion. We have to find answers as to how best to deal with that, and I believe that the Bill finds those answers.
	Finally-I know many Members wish to speak-I want to return to the question of management, which is central to the success of any measures put in place to save a broke and bust Post Office. I appeal to the Minister responsible for postal affairs to explain in more detail how his proposals will achieve that objective. The previous Government saw that as an important part of the process of rejuvenating the Post Office. That is why they introduced a Bill that would have meant a new injection of capital, with 30% ownership from the private sector. Sadly, that did not work. I do not believe that the previous Government worked hard enough to push it through. I understand why it did not work-because the Government did not have the courage to go further. No private company would seriously consider that small a holding for that big an investment. It was a very difficult proposition from the beginning.
	The truth is that the success of the Post Office will revolve around better relationships with the workers, better modernisation and removing the great pension fund burden. I believe that all those things can happen under the Bill if-I say again, if-we get the correct level of quality management. Such management must recognise that the whole of the marketplace has moved so quickly that there are very many opportunities, but it will take creativity, courage and bravery on the part of that management to achieve the successes that the organisation can achieve. I ask the Minister to use a little of his time to explain to us how he will attract that quality management, which is so central to the success of the operation.

Nick Brown: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), and I strongly agree with what he had to say about the bully-boy school of management. The hon. Gentleman is committed to privatisation, as he made clear in responding to the intervention from his hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh). However, although I listened carefully to the Secretary of State, I do not think that he made a case for selling Royal Mail.
	My problem with the Bill is that it does not seem to be directed at the individual problems faced by Royal Mail. Indeed, I believe that in some ways it would make matters worse. Specifically, privatisation does not of itself deal with the problems identified in the Hooper report.
	At the time of the Bill proposed by the last Labour Government, two arguments were advanced in favour of a private sector minority stake in Royal Mail. It was argued that Royal Mail needed private sector drivers, incentives, commercialisation and benchmarking-all the disciplines associated with private enterprise. It was said that they were necessary to drive forward the modernisation programme. At the same time and in the same context, it was argued that there was a need for the managerial expertise that could be found in the private sector, which prompted a question: if that managerial expertise was really needed, why could it not simply be hired?
	The Government-correctly, in my opinion-have asked Richard Hooper to review his work. He has reported progress on the crucial modernisation issue, and has had reassuring things to say about managerial expertise. The key necessity is surely to drive the modernisation through, but that will not be easy, because mechanisation brings with it job losses and reorganised work arrangements.
	The challenges are well understood. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) listed some of them. Modern communications such as text, e-mail and mobile phones have led to a remorseless decline in the use of traditional postal services. That has been offset to some extent by the use of direct mail marketing and the growth of the parcel business, which is partly dependent on internet shopping-but the trend is clear, and change is therefore essential. I accept that the background of poor industrial relations makes the process harder, but in the circumstances it is surely right to support the progress that has already been made-and identified by Richard Hooper-and to find ways of reinforcing the work on the modernisation programme.
	In any event, why do we need legislation to bring about privatisation? The Government have the power to sell shares now, although they are handicapped by the need to report the precise arrangements to the House and obtain our consent. The then Business and Enterprise Committee was very forceful on that point when it examined the Labour Government's proposals, and I am pretty certain that its members' views will not have changed.
	The Bill also separates Royal Mail from the post office network, even more explicitly than is currently the case. That will not solve the problems faced by individual post offices, and it will open up new dangers. In short, the problems are insufficient turnover and a small margin on individual transactions through the outlets. It is reasonable to consider what other business could be put through traditional sub-post offices-that is not an original idea-but it will be difficult to provide services requiring a volume of users in smaller population catchment areas. The problem is usually discussed in terms of rural communities, but it affects inner-city and other urban communities as well. The Government should focus on that, rather than on separating Royal Mail from the post office network.
	The burden of the universal service guarantee still rests effectively with Royal Mail, to the extent that it is effectively forced to subsidise its competitors in the parcel business, apparently-although I understand that the figures are a matter of dispute-to the tune of some 6.5p per item. That cannot be fair, and it is evidence of poor regulation.
	I urge caution, although I am not opposed to the idea of share ownership. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) pointed out, when employee share ownership was introduced at Rolls-Royce and by the municipal bus companies, the employees took the shares and then sold them. What matters to employees is the wages, job security and pension arrangements; those are the crucial things for them.
	Part 3 of the Bill deals with the regulator and reconfigures the existing arrangements. The relationship between Royal Mail and its regulator is poor. I have looked at the arrangements in the Bill, and this looks to me-I was wondering how I could explain this in summary to the House-like the Post Office version of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, with the industry having to pay for the regulator, at costs set by the regulator.
	Part 4 deals with what happens when everything goes wrong. I will urge the House to pass that part of the Bill if the rest of it is passed.

Lorely Burt: I welcome the Bill, which largely represents the policy that the Liberal Democrats went into the general election with. There are differences. Under our policy, the Government would have retained a stake, but we understand the problem of making this a very attractive sale, so that part of it has gone. Under our policy, share ownership for employees would have been larger, but the measure still represents the largest share ownership ever on record, so we can live with that. Another difference is the potential to mutualise the Post Office. That is right up our street as Liberal Democrats; it is Liberal Democrat-plus, so we welcome that.
	We have strongly maintained that the Post Office should never be sold and we hope that, under the new proposals, it will become stronger, thrive and even grow. The £1.34 billion announced today is extremely welcome.

Sarah Newton: On that point, I echo the warm welcome that my hon. Friend has given to the Bill. In the remote rural part of the world that I represent, the postal network is the lifeblood of the community. Opposition Members' response is really disappointing. They should be welcoming the commitment to no further network closures and the massive investment that will enable those post offices to come up with new services, such as financial service products for people on a low income who do not have ready access to banking-

Dawn Primarolo: Order. This is not a speech; this is an intervention. It is supposed to be brief.

Lorely Burt: I wholeheartedly endorse the comments of my hon. Friend.
	We know that mutualisation of the Post Office cannot occur straightaway, so I wonder whether my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State could indicate what conditions need to be in place before mutualisation can take place. In his aptly titled report, "Modernise or decline", Hooper strongly recommended private sector involvement in Royal Mail and that the Government should relieve Royal Mail of the burden of its pension scheme.

Michael Connarty: The hon. Lady is moving on from mutualisation of the post office network. I thought she might ask the Minister where the guarantees will be when the Post Office is mutualised or split off. I believe that we have to put in £270 million at the moment to keep the network alive. I can see no guarantee under the Bill that the Post Office will be supported. How could mutuals find that £270 million to keep the network intact?

Lorely Burt: We have already had the announcements of the Secretary of State, which have covered the point that the hon. Gentleman has made. Perhaps the Secretary of State might wish to address that point in his summing up.

Mark Hendrick: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Lorely Burt: I cannot take any more interventions. I am sorry.
	The point is that 90% of Royal Mail will become a private company. That necessitates close scrutiny to ensure that Royal Mail employees and customers and the taxpayer are protected.
	Consumer Focus wants changes that protect consumers to be added to the Bill. It believes that Ofcom "must" impose a consumer protection condition on every postal operator-rather than "may", which is the term currently used in the Bill. Please can we have "must" instead of "may"? Can we also add the requirement that Ofcom must impose the essential condition that every postal operator must guarantee the confidentiality, safety and security of mail?
	I know that Opposition Members are concerned that the Bill's provisions may be detrimental to customers in rural areas. Can we therefore insert into the Bill a definition of the minimum number of access points to the mail system-post offices and post boxes-and the criteria for geographic distribution, together with criteria under which exceptions could be sought? Can we also add a requirement on Ofcom to consult representatives of residential and small and medium-sized enterprise customers, and other particularly vulnerable customers, when conducting any review of the universal postal services order? SMEs often get left off the list, but it is important that they are consulted as well.
	Customers need proper protections when things go wrong. Can we build into the Bill a requirement for postal operators to be members of an approved redress scheme to ensure complaints-handling standards can be monitored and independently investigated? Finally on the consumer front, can we build in a requirement that postal operators must continue to provide appropriate information to the regulator and an appropriate consumer watchdog in order to enable independent monitoring of performance, quality of service, complaint handling and services provided to vulnerable consumers?
	I want to make a few comments about the separation of Royal Mail and the Post Office. Key provisions in the Bill allow for the privatisation of Royal Mail and the formal separation of Royal Mail and the Post Office. Formal separation offers considerable advantages for the Post Office. For example, it would be managed by a board that could be more closely aligned to its own strategic objectives, and would no longer be a junior partner in group decision making. However, the Government have announced that they will seek a refreshed inter-business agreement between Royal Mail and the Post Office. Will subsequent contracts be subjected to a competitive tender process given that, as Opposition Members have pointed out, there would be no guarantees that the Post Office would retain its mail contract thereafter? I fully accept that there may be arguments against seeking to maintain the contractual relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail in perpetuity as we cannot reasonably assume that consumer need will necessitate upholding the current access arrangements indefinitely. I also understand why, in light of future uncertainties, the Bill must not be too prescriptive, but might it include provision for the Secretary of State to seek a review of the access criteria at a future date, subject to parliamentary approval?
	On the division of assets between the Post Office and Royal Mail, the Bill allows for the transfer of property or other assets between parts of Royal Mail Holdings plc. These provisions allow property transfers to be made directly by the Secretary of State or the holdings company. My worry is that the Post Office has frequently taken a minor role compared to Royal Mail, so when negotiating the property transfers, we need to ensure that the greater weight of Royal Mail is not used unfairly. Therefore, can the Government take steps now, in advance of measures contained in the Bill and the separation of the holdings company taking effect, to maintain the Post Office's current assets?
	Finally, there is speculation about who might buy Royal Mail. All the protections I have mentioned must be in place, but I would like whoever the purchaser might be to be given the best possible chance to make Royal Mail a world-beating postal service.

Jack Dromey: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Lorely Burt: No, sorry. Royal Mail is currently hamstrung by regulations that make it uncompetitive against outside competitors, so can we examine those seriously? We want to make Royal Mail a much more attractive proposition for a prospective purchaser and ensure that the staff and new management, together, can make it the full and profitable service that it deserves to be.

Kate Hoey: I feel like saying, "Here we go again", because in my time in Parliament we have been through three different attempts to privatise Royal Mail in some form or other. All three attempts have failed, and I think that we will decide not to get this one through. I am convinced that the public, whatever their attitudes and their knowledge of what is going wrong on some of the issues relating to Royal Mail, do not want a fully privatised Royal Mail or, indeed, a partly privatised one. It is a pity that the previous Government's approach-my Government-almost left it open, as many Labour Members said, for another Government to carry on and go much further. So I have a kind of déjà vu here.
	The bit of the Bill that I really welcome is the lifting of the pension fund burden, but that can be done anyway-it should have been done by the previous Government. We did not need to go through all this time, effort and waste of money on consultants to know that the Royal Mail was in a bad state. Part of that was because of the pension fund deficit. Whose problem was that? It was certainly not that of the men and women who deliver our post or the members of the Communication Workers Union; it was, purely and simply, that of Governments of all complexions, who allowed the pension holiday to be taken.
	A lot has been said about modernising, but the thing that made such a difference to why the Royal Mail started to decline in many people's view was that for some years it had shockingly bad management. All they seemed to want to do was pay themselves grotesque salaries at the top, while the limited investment that was being made was not put into the modernisation that should have taken place. The position is slightly changed now, because the new management at Royal Mail are a different kind of management. I am not saying that they are absolutely perfect; I was very disappointed in the letter that was sent out, to which reference has been made, concerning the question of wanting to free up some of the universal service points. That is worrying, but recently there has been a real improvement in relations between the management and the CWU.
	A lot of the modernisation has gone ahead: new machinery and technology has been introduced, aligned with the new six-day standardised work plan; delivery methods have improved; and the equipment and the ways of working have changed. We have to examine mail and distribution centre rationalisation but, as I said in an intervention, closing the Vauxhall Nine Elms facility would be crazy, because it would involve huge additional costs of moving post out of London in lorries and vans. I hope that there is still room for discussion on that and that we will be able to prevent it from happening.
	What I am trying to say is that change is taking place and there is a changed attitude. Therefore, there is now no reason why the new Government, with the right support from those on the Opposition Benches, could not create a Royal Mail, minus its pension deficit, that has the kind of support that will give it sustainability and allow it to compete with anyone else in the world. The Bill, as it stands, contains so few safeguards. How sad it is that we could end up with our famous, wonderful Royal Mail, which has had so many loyal workers over many years, is a lifeline to people in rural communities and is seen by many people living in isolated communities as the one bit of contact that they have-in the form of their postman or postwoman-end up in the hands of a foreign owner. It is not just that that ownership is foreign. They will hand our precious asset over, out of the public sector, and for what? I saw no argument for it. There is no argument.
	The changes are already happening; we have a work force who realise that things need to change and they are changing. I cannot believe that some of the Liberal Democrats are going along with this, although I accept that they want to see the support for the post offices. I welcome again that support for those post offices, but it is a separate issue that should be happening anyway. I urge my party not only to oppose the Bill, which we are, but to say that we were wrong to move for semi-privatisation, because it has allowed us to go this way and has allowed the Government to pick up from where we left off.
	The Communication Workers Union is signed up to all the modernisation, but we do not want to see a service that is stripped back to the minimum, getting rid of the second deliveries and a number of such issues, as well as posing an overall threat to the universal service obligation. The public do not want this and they will not let it happen. The coalition Government are taking on public opinion at their peril.

Jonathan Lord: I had hoped to make my maiden speech last Friday on my private Member's Bill, to pay homage in some small way to the great lady, the former Member for Finchley, who famously made her maiden speech on Second Reading of her successful private Member's Bill. I am grateful to colleagues on both sides of the House for giving it its Second Reading without objection, and I am happy today to support the Second Reading of this Bill.
	Let me begin by thanking my predecessor, Humfrey Malins, for his long record of service to his constituents and to this House. He was an extremely assiduous constituency MP for Croydon, North-West and then for Woking. He was listened to with great interest in this House, particularly on home affairs, on which he spoke with the legal experience of a solicitor, a district judge and a Crown recorder. He was a shadow Minister for immigration and asylum for five years, and I believe that it is typical of the man that when he lost his seat in Croydon in the general election of 1992, he immediately set about founding the Immigration Advisory Service, which to this day provides free legal advice on matters of asylum and immigration. In 1997, he was re-elected to Parliament as the MP for Woking and received a CBE for his services to immigration policy.
	Humfrey was extremely well liked by his constituents and, I believe, by Members on both sides of the House. He remains a great lover of sport. Having played against the All Blacks in his youth, he went on to found and captain the parliamentary rugby union team and later captained the parliamentary golf society. There are many fine golf courses in the constituency of Woking, and I hope that Humfrey keeps up his many friendships in our town and in our villages by playing them as often as possible.
	My constituency of Woking has an ancient past but a passion to succeed in the present. Although it boasts the ruins of Woking palace, which was one of Henry VIII's favourite hunting lodges, it came into being as a modern town by Act of Parliament. In the 1840s, London's churchyards were running out of burial space, so the Metropolitan Interments Act 1850 forbade any further burials in London and encouraged the building of cemeteries outside the city. A further Act of Parliament in 1852 set up the London Necropolis Company, which went on to purchase 2,000 acres of land at Brookwood in Woking.
	Brookwood cemetery remains a beautiful and tranquil place, a place of truly national significance and importance. I believe that it is worthy of more support both locally and nationally. One of those interred there was Dr Gottlieb Wilhelm Leitner, an oriental scholar who was reputedly fluent in 50 languages. In 1889, he founded the Woking Shah Jahan mosque, which was the first purpose-built mosque in western Europe. For many years, it was the focus of the development of Islam in this country. I celebrate the fact that Woking has its first Asian mayor, Councillor Mohammed Iqbal. I pledged with him to serve the residents of our borough, and in particular our British Muslim population. It is worth noting that Dr Leitner, the founder of the first mosque in England, was Jewish. That is an interesting and wonderful thing that we should bear in mind as we seek peace and reconciliation in the world.
	H. G. Wells was another famous citizen of Woking. On one of my first home surgery visits, I visited a modest, semi-detached villa in the heart of Woking, only to be told that it was the very house where H. G. Wells had penned "The War of the Worlds", which envisaged Martians landing on beautiful Horsell common and laying waste to the whole of Woking and, indeed, vast swathes of southern England. We now celebrate H. G. Wells's imagination with a large, modern, Martian tripod sculpture in the centre of our town.
	While we are proud of our Victorian, literary and cultural heritage, we also look forward to the future. Woking borough council is innovative and has an acknowledged national reputation for leading on green issues and renewable energy. Our businesses strive to succeed-none more so than McLaren, which, building on its success in Formula 1, is now an even larger enterprise that is going to build a sports car for the road. I would very much like to own one of McLaren's new sports cars, but unfortunately my parliamentary salary and my wife forbid it.
	Woking has a vast panoply of charitable organisations, all of which are willing to make the big society a success. It is a great honour to represent Woking in Parliament, and I hope to do so for many years to come-

Dawn Primarolo: Order. I am sorry, but the hon. Member's time is up.

Michael Weir: I congratulate the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on making his maiden speech. I have been to Woking only once, and he missed out its most famous citizen-the great Paul Weller.
	Turning to the matter at hand, although our amendment was not selected, it sets out the feeling of the Scottish National party, Plaid Cymru and all the parties from Northern Ireland, including the Democratic Unionist party; although DUP Members did not sign the amendment, they support its aims. We fear for the future of the universal service obligation if the Post Office is privatised.
	I contributed submissions to Richard Hooper's original work. I agreed with much of what he said in the end, but I strongly opposed the part-privatisation proposed by the previous Government and absolutely oppose the full privatisation proposed by this Government. Today, the Business Secretary argued that regulation will protect the universal service guarantee and that there is therefore no need to maintain Royal Mail as a public company, but it is inevitable that the pressures from a fully private company will lead to a reduction in the universal service.
	Over the summer, the Business Secretary appeared to recognise that the current six days a week pick up and delivery service may not survive and suggested that a five days a week service might be sufficient. That accords with the current definition of the universal service, which does not include Saturday deliveries, so the Government already envisage the service declining. That position was justified on the grounds that it would not discriminate against any area, since it would be the same service whether someone resides in Kensington or Kyleakin. However, that is not quite the case. If I reside or run a business in Kensington, I am sure that there are a number of different services to which I can turn, but it is somewhat different in rural areas of Scotland where Royal Mail is the only service that will pick up and deliver mail. That vital point must be borne in mind when we consider the Bill's proposals.
	We are dealing not only with residential customers but with business customers, many of whom, in more rural and remote areas, rely absolutely on Royal Mail, which is the only carrier that is obliged and able to deliver a service to them. Does anyone really believe that that will continue in a fully privatised environment? How long will it be before a private owner such as TNT or Deutsche Post argues that it is at a competitive disadvantage because it is the only company required to offer a universal service? How long will it be before it wants the agreement to be watered down or requires public subsidy to enable it to continue?
	Such an outcome would be a disaster for rural business. Only this week, the Government talked about the need to increase broadband access in rural areas. All too often Royal Mail is considered old-fashioned-it is seen as Postman Pat and his black and white cat touring Greendale as opposed to the brave new world of broadband. Although broadband is important in rural areas, which would benefit enormously from faster access, one cannot send goods down a telephone line or a fibre optic cable. Unless some entrepreneur in this brave new world comes up with Star Trek transporters, we will still require a physical delivery service to go up and down dale and glen to pick up and deliver physical objects. At the moment, the only company that will guarantee to do that is Royal Mail. We have to take that on board and do nothing that will undermine the service if we are to encourage the regeneration of our rural areas and create jobs in the new green economy.
	I appreciate that many Government Members firmly believe in the overriding primacy of private enterprise, but even private enterprise sometimes needs public help. I was intrigued by the Prime Minister's speech to the CBI earlier this week in which he said that
	"business confidence doesn't just come from financial and human assets. It comes from physical assets too-from our infrastructure."
	I do not often agree with the Prime Minister, but I think that is absolutely correct. He recognises the need for substantial public investment in the infrastructure needed to help businesses develop. Infrastructure is not just roads, railways and broadband-it is also investment in existing systems that provide a backbone for many businesses. Infrastructure assets such as Royal Mail provide new entrepreneurial businesses in many of our rural areas with an essential service that enables them to operate, grow and create jobs. They do that in many areas that are about to be hit very hard by the reduction in public sector employment.
	I am interested in the fascinating myth-busters leaflet published by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

Edward Davey: It is good.

Michael Weir: Indeed. Let me quote one of the myths in the leaflet:
	"Growth in parcels from online shopping will outweigh falls in letter volumes".
	The response states:
	"The parcels market is much smaller than the letters market and has been fully liberalised since 1981, making it highly competitive."
	It might be highly competitive, but many carriers will not deliver to remote and rural areas, particularly to Scottish islands, except at immense cost. There is a real danger in going down the route of privatising postal services.

Alan Reid: The Bill mentions, in clause 30:
	"At least one delivery of letters every Monday to Saturday...to the home or premises of every individual...in the United Kingdom"
	at uniform price. What better guarantee than that does the hon. Gentleman want?

Michael Weir: I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the summer his Business Secretary said that the service might go down to five days a week, so he recognises that it might be reduced. He also said that European regulations rightly ask only for a five day a week service. Any privatised service will inevitably want to cut costs and there will be pressure on the Government to allow that.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Weir: I shall not give way again; time is getting on.
	I pointed out in an intervention that the chief executive officer of Royal Mail is calling for an overhaul of the regulatory regime, including the ability to price products freely, to put limitations on the products covered by the universal service obligation and for the USO fully to cover its costs-the cost of delivering a letter to the islands of Scotland is about £30 not 30p-and for restrictions on access to the Royal Mail network by competitors. If a privately owned Royal Mail goes down that route, the pressure on the Government and regulators could be immense and could mean a substantial rise in postal costs to rural areas. It would be the ultimate irony if the Bill meant that a privatised Royal Mail was given an ability to compete against other privatised companies that it was denied when it was a public body.
	I should like to say more about post offices- [ Interruption. ] I would take another intervention if it gave me two more minutes. The Business Secretary failed to explain how mutualisation would work. He failed to say how a post office that has moved into a branch of WH Smith, as many have, will form part of a mutual. How will individually owned-

Dawn Primarolo: Order. Time is up.  [ Interruption. ] Will the hon. Gentleman resume his seat? I ask Members to stick to six minutes. Interventions with four seconds to go can give more time, as has just happened, and the hon. Gentleman benefited from that.

John Pugh: The powers that be in the Whips Office approached me last week to ask whether I would like to speak on the Bill, and then a few days afterwards they asked which side I intended to speak on. I reassure them that I shall speak largely for the Bill.
	The Government are to be congratulated on introducing a Bill on postal reform. I accept that stagnation is not an option. The pension deficit is crippling. The regulatory environment is crazy, as many Members have established. The communications market is changing dramatically, and the work force are confused and demoralised.
	The last time I spoke on postal services in this place, I did so on behalf of employees in my constituency who were locked in battle with the local management. I must admit that like other Members I did not find the Crozier-led management easy to deal with. Nor did I find the union especially helpful, although I have a generally high opinion of the Communication Workers Union and of Billy Hayes in particular. The battle was over an astonishingly high rate of dismissals and disciplinary actions taken against a work force who are neither work-shy nor particularly militant.
	A pattern of petty penalisation and unreasonable demands had emerged, and it needed to be dealt with. Otherwise decent staff were being punished for not fulfilling unreasonable schedules, or for simple lapses of concentration, such as not wearing their cycle helmet at the right time in the right place, or for not following procedures with absolute accuracy. In some cases, that became the basis for dismissal, and bit by bit, long-term staff were replaced by casuals. I came to the conclusion that the management wept no tears at all about that, and that the dismissal of long-term, high-pension staff was in fact relatively welcome.
	I came to the conclusion that unreasonable schedules were being set-almost wilfully-because Royal Mail believed that the only way it could compete was to ask staff not only to go the extra mile, but to go another and then another. I draw no comfort from the current agreement whereby Royal Mail is to beef up massively the junk mail element in every postbag. A business that plans to survive by giving its customers more of what they do not want does not seem to have much future. That is why something has to change, and there is a lot in the Bill we should welcome.
	We need to do something about the insanity of postal regulation. For years, Postcomm has forced Royal Mail to upstream and downstream prices to subsidise its competitors. The line is, "Let the poor old Royal Mail struggle with the long paths, the dogs, the gates that fall off their hinges, the flats with no visible means of access and the long country roads." While Royal Mail does that, the private market looks at what is actually profitable.
	Payment for the final mile has been derisory, and as the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) would point out, it is due to the bloodless application of EU law and directive that has done untold damage to the postal system of the UK. I do not want to go into the rationale for that; suffice it to say that as a consequence of the single market agreement that Mrs Thatcher introduced-or got Parliament to agree to-we are stuck with it. But as far as I can see from the Bill, we are not stuck with Postcomm. That is a significant improvement. I welcome, too, the emphasis on employee share ownership.

Jack Dromey: Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that there is nothing in the Bill that would prevent ownership passing to private equity, perhaps aided by the hedge funds, and a takeover not in the national interest, including potentially by foreign ownership?

John Pugh: The hon. Gentleman is assuming that the Bill is totally finished business. If he has amendments that he feels ought to be tabled and that ought to impress the Minister, I am sure he will have the opportunity to do so.
	Not only is employee ownership part of Lib Dem policy, but it is a long-standing part of Liberal policy before that, as many of my hon. Friends will recognise, and it was backed by candidates in the recent Labour leadership elections. It is good to see employee ownership in the Bill. It is 10%, but it is there.
	I welcome the central place in the Bill given to retaining the universal service obligation and the measures taken to secure it. We all hope that they will be good enough.
	I welcome the plans for the Post Office, but with some caveats. It is a huge franchise and it still has huge potential, but it remains the case that there is virtually nothing that it now does which cannot be done in some other way. Its viability depends on elderly customers preferring to do things in a traditional way, via paper transactions. It needs more than the good wishes of the House, the occasional subsidy and a more modern and diverse facade. It is a very distinctive type of franchise, unparalleled in any other European country, and it needs a distinctive role.
	That can only be through an enduring link with the Government or with the community that post offices serve. It is not clear to me yet what long-term role the Government or the community wants the Post Office to discharge. My fear is that if central Government, local government and the community cannot identify that role, the franchise will lose its universal service provider status and part of its raison d'être. The Government need to work out what they want a sustainable post office network to do. We cannot have, as we have had in the past, some Departments promoting it and others, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, effectively sabotaging it.
	I fear there is also an element of backdoor sabotage. I have had difficulty in my constituency, where sub-postmasters have tried to sell franchises to somebody else and have encountered untold difficulties in seeking to do that and prohibitive prices presented to buyers.
	The fundamental issue that we are facing is privatisation. Some people approach the subject with a presumption against privatisation, and some have a presumption in favour of privatisation. I guess most of us are fairly pragmatic about it, but do we accept that the safeguards of the universal service obligation are robust? If we accept that there is an argument for the Government to absorb the pension deficit, and if we accept that the business will go better with sane regulation and employee involvement, the big question is why not retain the business in public ownership. That is the issue on which we will torture ourselves over the next few days. We hope that we will have from the Minister an exhibition of evidence-led policy where the balance of argument prevails, not the balance of numbers.

Adrian Bailey: I start with a declaration of interest. I am a Labour and Co-operative Member of Parliament, with an 18-year involvement with the Co-operative movement prior to coming to the House. Since entering the House, I have at various times been chair of the employee share ownership group and the all-party building societies and financial mutuals group. Philosophically, there are considerable elements of the Bill that I instinctively support. The Government's recognition of the potential role of employee share ownership and mutuality in delivering postal services in this country is welcome. My regret, which forces me to oppose this Second Reading, is that the Bill's other parts will militate against the successful implementation of either employee share ownership or mutuality.
	My experience within the movement has demonstrated a couple of things to me. We cannot legislate for mutuality. We can set up a framework of legislation in which mutuality can thrive, but we cannot look at a business and say, "We will make that a mutual." Mutuality and co-operation have to stem from the desire of those who work within an organisation to work in a certain way, driven by a certain culture. That culture may exist in Royal Mail and in the post office service, but the issue has not yet been determined.
	I welcome the consultation on the Bill with the co-operative movement, but I did not feel too confident when the Secretary of State seemed not to know whether it had taken place with Co-operatives UK or with the Co-operative Group. The fact that he fails to understand the difference between the two does not exactly reassure me of a heavy commitment to that line of organisation.
	As the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) said, the previous Business, Innovation and Skills Committee examined the Royal Mail and the Post Office and made a range of recommendations, many of which the Minister alluded to, but many of which have not been implemented. That prompts the question that if their implementation is necessary to make the privatised model work, why have they not been implemented while the company has been in public ownership? Indeed, if they had been implemented, it might have made the private offer more acceptable. The Secretary of State did not sufficiently explain that situation.
	My fundamental objection to the whole privatisation programme is that it basically instils a contradictory philosophy to that in the mutual and co-operative elements of the Bill. I have not seen it fully explained how the drive for shareholder appreciation and profit will be mitigated to allow for the regulatory and social obligations of the privatised Royal Mail. There has been a long debate about the universal service obligation, the six-day delivery and so on, and the fact remains that whoever buys Royal Mail in the long term will have to satisfy shareholders, but the potentially irreversible drive to make profit must call into question the regulatory framework that we have been assured will contain the privatised industry. That situation will have serious consequences for the post office service.
	If the Royal Mail withdraws its current contract at some stage, or under some ownership or model, it could sound the death knell for hundreds, if not thousands, of post offices. Only 4,000 of the current 11,000 post offices are profitable. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) said that mutuals can fail, and in this context there is a high possibility of failure.

Chris Evans: I hear what my hon. Friend says. Does he not agree that for a mutual to be successful, it needs to have a viable business plan, which the Bill does not include?

Adrian Bailey: Exactly. That will be one of the determining factors in whether post office sub-postmasters and other employees want to work within a mutual framework. The fact remains that Royal Mail, driven by an imperative to make more profit, will be bound to re-examine some of its contracts with the Post Office, and there is no guarantee that they will be sustained. About a third of Post Office Ltd's total income is dependent on those contracts with Royal Mail, and that creates a degree of uncertainty and risk that could well work against those involved in the Post Office being prepared to accept a mutual organisation.

Damian Collins: Listening to the hon. Gentleman's remarks, one might think that the post office network has gone through a halcyon period. What guarantees were there for the thousands of postmasters who saw their businesses close over the past few years?

Adrian Bailey: I do not recall anybody saying that post offices had gone through a halcyon period, but under the last post office reorganisation many sub-postmasters applied for the compensation package that was agreed for them. I very much doubt that that would still be available under a revised and privatised process.

Jesse Norman: The hon. Gentleman says that it is impossible to create mutuals from a transfer, but is it not the case that John Spedan Lewis created the John Lewis Partnership by transferring a business into an employee-owned trust? Is not that a great example of an existing business being transformed into a highly successful mutual, if not a co-operative?

Adrian Bailey: Certainly John Lewis did that, but he did not just hand it over-there was a process by which he ascertained the willingness of others within the business to accept it. That situation has to be created. I could equally point to the situation in the '70s when co-operatives failed because they did not have that in place.
	I oppose the Bill because it is fundamentally flawed. At the Lib Dem conference, the Secretary of State said, "Capitalism takes no prisoners," but since then he seems to have been on a private journey. That is demonstrated by this Bill, in which he puts forward a solution based on a brand of capitalism that I would describe as cuddly capitalism, whereby shareholders will forgo their private profit in order to embrace a co-operative and mutual solution that mitigates the social impact of their drive for profits.

Andrew Stephenson: I welcome the Second Reading of the Bill and what the Secretary of State has said, which has helped to clear up a number of the points that I was going to raise.
	I believe that now is the right time for a fresh debate about the future of Royal Mail, particularly the need for radical change in the way that postal services are regulated. There is an urgent need for a review of the regulations that are supposed to govern Royal Mail and the universal service but in reality prevent the company from operating in a truly competitive and open market. None of us doubts the immense service and commitment of the thousands of postmen and women and sub-postmasters across the country who work tirelessly to serve their community. I know of many in my own constituency who consistently go that extra mile not only to do their job but to serve their community in so many different ways. We owe it to these people to ensure that we get this Bill right and that that Royal Mail is given the opportunity to flourish in the future. That opportunity exists now, and we have the chance to do what the previous Government failed to do: to breathe fresh life into a national treasure that would otherwise be crushed by the weight of regulation, strangled by the noose of the historical pension deficit and starved by the absence of capital that is needed to continue the modernisation programme.
	As a local MP, I know how important the universal service is; many other Members have touched on that. The one-price-goes-anywhere, six-days-a-week service to the UK's 28 million homes and businesses has been in place since Royal Mail was established, and it is highly valued by the public and by businesses large and small across the country. However, many at Royal Mail would say that that is now threatened because of the way in which regulation is strangling Royal Mail's ability to compete in the wider marketplace. It is also vital to note how important this service is to the men and women working in Royal Mail, who derive a great deal of job satisfaction from this part of their job.
	As several hon. Members have pointed out, Royal Mail is in a precarious position: there is no hiding from the facts. Mail volumes are falling, the company has a multi- billion-pound pension deficit, and there is an urgent need for more capital to be injected into the company. I welcome the provisions in the Bill that will allow Royal Mail flexible and timely access to capital in future as it continues its modernisation to provide customers with the services they want.
	That brings me to the major issue facing the Royal Mail, on which I wish to elaborate. The company is currently stifled by more regulation than its competitors, so the status quo is no longer an option. The biggest single threat to the universal service obligation, which is protected as part of the Bill, is the unfair regulatory framework in which the Royal Mail currently operates.
	Deregulation of UK postal services is long overdue. I can think of no other market or industry in which a state-owned institution such as the Royal Mail is forced to offer its competitors a subsidised rate that does not even cover the cost of its business. As my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) pointed out, and as the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) said in his reply to the Secretary of State, Royal Mail's rivals currently have an in-built price advantage because of the arbitrary and unfair margin that the regulator sets between the price that Royal Mail can charge its own business customers and the price that it charges competitors for the use of its network.
	I am sure that the original intention of the regulations on that matter was to help encourage new providers into the market, but it seems somewhat perverse that they now mean taxpayers and Royal Mail customers are effectively subsidising foreign competitors. Those access headroom regulations allow rivals to undercut Royal Mail, no matter how efficient its business becomes. In the interest of fairness, and so that Royal Mail can operate freely and competitively, they must surely be reviewed.

Fiona O'Donnell: Would the hon. Gentleman like to consider the deregulation of bus services, which has not led to an increase in competition? In particular, services and competition in remote and rural areas have been reduced.

Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Lady for that point. I believe that we need to get the right balance in regulation between protecting consumers and ensuring that we create a stable company. I therefore welcome most of the Bill's provisions, particularly on protecting the Royal Mail's universal service obligation.
	We need to get regulation right, and I should like to ask the Secretary of State for any further assurances that he can give the House that the Bill will deliver the open, transparent, fair and competitive postal service market that is needed to allow the Royal Mail to prosper in future. I also ask Ministers to ensure that the Bill allows Royal Mail to introduce new products without always having to consult its rivals publicly for three months, as the current regulations require. That severely limits the company's ability to innovate and compete.
	It seems to me that there should be regulation and price control only where there is little or no competition. Currently, 80% of the Royal Mail's revenues are covered by regulation, although rivals handle at least 40% of the mail, and 60% of bulk mail. Personally, I should like competitors to be given access to its network on commercial terms and at a commercial price, rather than the Royal Mail being forced to deliver its competitors' mail at a loss.
	The Royal Mail and the Post Office are key national institutions, and we must ensure that they are both on a secure and stable footing. Securing the future of the post office network is absolutely vital to me. Pendle lost 17 sub-post offices under the last Government, including, most recently, six branches in 2008. Many parts of the country fared even worse than my constituency, with the number of post offices decreasing from 17,845 in 2000 to only 11,905 today. I welcome the fact that the Post Office is not for sale as part of the Bill, and that there will therefore be no further programme of closures. That will come as a huge reassurance to numerous elderly and disabled residents in Pendle who rely on the local post office on a daily basis.
	I was encouraged by what the Secretary of State had to say about investing in the network and exploring future business opportunities, and particularly by the £1.34 billion extra that he announced today. I welcome the Bill and fully support the moves that will help the Royal Mail to flourish in an open and competitive marketplace in future. I look forward to supporting the passage of the Bill, with the aim of delivering a strong and stable company for customers, the 155,000 employees, and potential future shareholders.

Glenda Jackson: Earlier today I passed a lobby outside the House, whose protagonists were carrying placards that bore two messages. The first was "Bash the bankers, not the pensioners", and the other was "Save our services". Indeed, there is a lobby of pensioners in the House even as we speak. The Secretary of State highlighted the fact that post offices are of particular importance to pensioners. However, I thought he rather narrowed the importance of post offices, certainly for my constituents, because post offices are vital not only to pensioners but to people with disabilities, the unemployed and young parents. One must give credit to the new coalition Government, because their record is 100% consistent: despite their pronouncements to the contrary, all their policies attack the most vulnerable and the poorest in our society.
	There are no guarantees whatever in the Bill that post offices and sub-post offices will be maintained. It is easy to say that there will be no more post office closures-I am somewhat confused on whether that covers sub-post offices-but without cast-iron guarantees, my constituents will suffer inordinately. All of us who were here in the last Parliament and who are most grateful and humble for being returned remember our struggles to save our sub-post offices. That is certainly true of my constituency and throughout London. I lost four in the last round, and six in the two previous rounds. Such closures impact on more than the individual users of the sub-post office. London is essentially a sequence of small villages, and sub-post offices tend to be a major part of the smaller, local economies. People go to the post office and do a little bit of shopping in their local shops. Once the post office goes, those other shops lose out.
	The Government are telling us that the retail sector will be the essential driving force of our growing economy, but if there are no guarantees that essential counter services will be maintained, the economic fallout could be greater.

Jesse Norman: As it is true that no Parliament can bind its successors, and as we have in legislation a clear statement that there will no further closures, could the hon. Lady specify what guarantees she is looking for that cannot be found in the Bill?

Glenda Jackson: With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, his Secretary of State stood at the Dispatch Box and gave categorical assurances that his proposals will revitalise and re-energise our postal services. He assured us not only that our postal services will not be diminished, but that they will expand and grow, and become more inventive and entrepreneurial. There is an apparent guarantee that national delivery will be set in stone. I asked him how the Government could guarantee for perpetuity a privatisation of postal services without entrepreneurs, who apparently will come rushing in, but the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) said that entrepreneurs would run a million miles away from putting money into the Post Office.
	The Secretary of State made those guarantees and cast them in stone, so why can he not do that in respect of sub-post offices? I am perfectly prepared to accept changes to post offices up to a point, but all the sub-post offices I know are additions to retail outlets, not the primary source of business for the individuals running them.
	The public still firmly believe, despite the vagaries-or worse than vagaries-of the changes to our postal service, that the Post Office is a public service. The people of this country take great pride in it and believe it to be central and essential to their way of life. It matters not how many times one points out to them the decline in the number of letters we write, as everybody would apparently sooner send an e-mail because that is easier. I can understand that, but I am certain that I am not the only Member of this House who despairs of the day when e-mails were invented, because of the time it takes to send and read them. And what do we get at the end of it? I shall not go down that road, but I can see by hon. Members' smiles that my experience is shared universally.
	None the less, the public value and treasure the public service provided by post offices, and not only because, as for many of my constituents, it frequently used to be the case-this has improved slightly lately-that the only other human face that some people saw was that of the postman. In many instances, the only people whom they had conversations with were those they met in our sub-post offices. I have come across more than one example of a sub-postmaster missing seeing a particular pensioner over a comparatively short time span and alerting social services and the police because he was concerned that she might have had an accident or that something else might be wrong, and being proven right. Post offices do not simply offer a commercial service, whereby we can communicate with each other via the post; they offer a public service through which the public value each other and, in essence, take care of each other.
	This Bill is yet another brick in the wall of what the Government are attempting to convince us will be their big society, if all these policies go through. However, it seems to me that what these policies will produce is the big broken society. If we lose the capacity to care for each other, what will be the point if we do manage to close the national deficit? It is the human beings of this country who are of primary importance. They are the ones who are going to get us out of this mess. Their feelings about public services are not limited to what the Government tell us are their priorities-the NHS and education. Rather, it is the public service in our postal services that they value. As others have said, there are aspects of the Bill to which one can give comparative support, but the Bill as a whole is an unmitigated mess.

Chris White: Even after listening to the previous speaker, I think that we all share the same view, which is that we have to create a sustainable future for our post service, so that it can both serve our economy and continue to serve as a public good. We should all accept that Royal Mail has been lagging behind its competitors, and, with a potential reduction in the volume of letters of between 25 to 40% over the next five years, despite the use of e-mail and modern technology, we need to find ways to make Royal Mail change with the times. The injection of private capital will help to fund the necessary modernisation, which has already begun, but which needs to continue apace.
	However, a more innovative way of achieving rising productivity-one put forward by the Bill-is by providing employees with shares in Royal Mail. Evidence has consistently shown that employees who feel a sense of ownership of a company have higher morale, and are likely to be more successful as a consequence, than those who do not feel that sense of ownership. The employee share scheme will give staff at Royal Mail a real stake in the future of their company and give employees a financial incentive to see improvements in the company and an even larger turnover. Given the clear benefit of that approach, my only regret is that the Government have not made the employee share scheme greater than 10%. However, given the financial constraints and the need to attract fresh investment into Royal Mail, I appreciate that doing so may not be practical. That said, I have some other concerns.

Chris Evans: Does the hon. Gentleman not think that the best thing would be to offer Royal Mail a mutualisation, as has happened with Post Office Ltd ?

Chris White: No, I think that the offer as it stands is sensible and practical, although as I have said, it would be better if the level was greater than 10%. However, as it stands, that is the only way that we are going to move forward.
	I recognise that the injection of private capital has been sought in order to protect the universal service obligation, although I would like to use this opportunity to state how damaging it would be for communities and small businesses if Royal Mail dropped the USO. I understand that there are considerable costs involved. However, for many communities-particularly rural communities-and a vast number of small enterprises, Royal Mail is an important lifeline, with nearly 60% of small businesses wanting to continue to receive mail deliveries six days a week. Given that the small and medium-sized enterprise sector will play a large part in our economic recovery, we should avoid any changes to the USO that might damage growth or hamper development in that part of our economy.
	The future of Royal Mail is not the only concern for communities and businesses, however. People also want a strong future for our post offices. In the past few years, post offices have closed in many communities, including my own, and those vital local amenities must be protected. If they are to survive, they must become more than simply a place for posting or holding letters.
	The Post Office already needs a subsidy of around £80 million in order to carry out its functions, and this will increase if other income streams are not found. I believe that a Post Office bank offers a real solution and could provide a strong future for our post offices. About 25% of small businesses bank with the Post Office's financial services, and I am confident that more would do so if the limited number of transactions that they are able to make could be expanded. A survey by the Federation of Small Businesses showed that nearly 40% of its members were in favour of a Post Office bank and would bank with it. The present arrangements mean that 50% of the profits made on financial services provided by the Post Office leave the Post Office business, and that is simply not sustainable. Moreover, the joint venture with Bank of Ireland has not been able to deliver the basic, core banking products.
	An independent Post Office bank would bring banking right back to the centre of our communities and help to revive trust between the public and the banking sector. A Post Office bank would help small business, and thus our economy, and it would provide those who have difficulty accessing the high street banks with an opportunity to get hold of basic financial services, helping the most vulnerable in our society. In many of the poorest areas, people have lost access to traditional forms of banking, and a Post Office bank would provide a trusted face and a chance for those communities to use the financial services that many of us take for granted.
	Such a bank would not be unique to Britain. The French postal service launched its bank in January 2006, and, by 2007, it had 11 million postal banking accounts providing significant revenue. The Italian postal service, Poste Italiane, launched BancoPosta in 2000. By 2002, Poste Italiane had shown a net profit for the first time in 50 years. So it can be done; it is just a question of putting the framework in place to achieve it.

David Anderson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris White: I am sorry, but I will continue if I may.
	A good postal service and a strong network of post offices is not a luxury; it is a necessity, for economic and social reasons. We need to be innovative and bold, and we need to think about sustainability. I am confident that this legislation will move Royal Mail and our post offices in the right directions, and I look forward to supporting it in due course.

Pat McFadden: We have had many debates on post offices and Royal Mail in the House over the years, and we have often concentrated on the competition regime governing the different mail companies that are engaged in the delivery of mail. Less often, we have concentrated on the technological shift away from all mail companies to new technologies, including text messaging and the use of the internet and e-mail, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) has just referred. This is a fundamental shift, and it lies behind many of the problems that Royal Mail now faces. Perhaps it is natural to concentrate on the things that we believe we can change, but just because we cannot change that technological shift, it does not make it any less real or any less fundamental to the challenge being faced by our post offices and by Royal Mail itself.
	All this is not necessarily bad news for Royal Mail, because there is a growth in fulfilment mail, as it is called, as well as in internet shopping and in selling things through eBay. However, Royal Mail's business needs fundamental modernisation if we are to keep the universal service obligation and the six-day-a-week delivery service that lies at the foundation of our postal system.
	There are some areas of the Bill with which I can agree. The Secretary of State attempted to say that it was much the same Bill as the one proposed by the previous Government, but it clearly is not. They have some areas in common, however. The Government taking on an historic pension deficit-and, indeed, the way in which they are taking it on-is something with which I can agree. The taking on of both the assets and the liabilities puts postal workers on the same basis as nurses, teachers and so forth. This method was attacked by the previous Conservative Opposition as a raid on the pension fund, but I am glad to say that, now they are in government, they have turned their backs on that position and adopted the method we proposed.
	Similarly, when it comes to regulation, it is right to move from Postcomm to Ofcom and regulate mail services in the wider context of communications technologies. Regulation, however, is about more than the heading on the notepaper or the address of the building. It is also right to put at the heart of the regulatory system the maintenance of the universal service. This Bill, like Labour's Bill, has a reserved power for a levy to support universal service. In his report, Richard Hooper was sceptical about the need for this, seeing it perhaps as an excuse for modernisation not to proceed. We felt it was right to take such a power to ensure the maintenance of universal service in the future.
	So much for areas of agreement. The fundamental area of difference is on ownership. Clause 3 of Labour's Bill said:
	"Each Royal Mail company must at all times be publicly owned."
	Anyone wanting to see the difference between our proposals and this Bill need only scan the present Bill to try to find such a clause-they will not find it. That clause meant that any private investment had to be on a minority basis. The idea of having a minority stake was not particularly new; it had been floated as far back as 1998. Why keep a majority public stake? It gives the taxpayer an ongoing interest in the maintenance of the universal service obligation and an ongoing interest in the inter-business agreement, which is so essential to the post office network. Even more important than those two elements, however, it also gives the taxpayer an ongoing interest in the transformation of what is, after all, a public service. The taxpayer is taking on the historic pension deficit and the liabilities therein, so why should not the taxpayer share the upside of the modernisation that the Bill is designed to achieve? That explains the logic behind keeping a majority stake in taxpayers' hands.
	All that has been cast aside by the Government. Our Bill was a proposal for partnership; this Bill is a proposal for privatisation. On employee shares, yes, we were in favour of that, too, but again, only in the context of a company that would remain majority-owned by the taxpayer. What guarantees are there for the universal service obligation, the inter-business agreement and the taxpayer sharing in the upswing envisaged by the Bill?
	Finally, there is a lesson for Labour Members, too. My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) said that we should not have introduced our Bill. I offer the opposite lesson, however, as the truth is that if we had managed to get our Bill through, we would have had a publicly owned Royal Mail and might not have had to face the measure before us. There is a fundamental difference between what we were proposing and what is before us today. That difference is a majority publicly owned Royal Mail-a difference, I suggest, that is worth having.

Alan Reid: I represent a constituency with many small, remote communities, including many islands. Clearly, Royal Mail and the Post Office are vitally important to that constituency. I have to admit that when privatisation was first mooted, I certainly questioned it. However, I am now convinced that it is the only way forward because of the state of the finances of both Royal Mail and the Government more widely. Thus, private capital provides the only way of investing in the modern plant and machinery that Royal Mail so desperately needs. Given the huge mountain of debts that the previous Government left behind, there is simply no alternative.

Jim Shannon: One of the proposals involves the returned letter centre in Belfast, which employs 26 people. It is the most efficient returned letter centre in the United Kingdom, so the proposed changes cannot be to do with efficiency. As for savings, where are the savings in such a move?

Alan Reid: I am afraid that I do not know the details of what is happening to Royal Mail services in Belfast, so I shall have to pass on that, but the Minister has an hour and a half in which to find out the answer.
	As I was saying, there simply is no alternative to private capital. Royal Mail is in a very difficult position. As other Members have pointed out, there is competition not just from other mail companies, but from other means of communication such as the internet and e-mail. As we heard from the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), the former postal affairs Minister, the last Government concluded that private capital was required. There are clearly differences of opinion on whether there should still be a majority Government stake or whether the Government should have the power to sell off more than half the business, but I think that we should give the Government the power to sell off as much of the business as they consider necessary. We should bear in mind that the Bill does not mandate the full privatisation of Royal Mail, but merely gives the Government that power. I believe that we should give them the flexibility that they require in these difficult economic times.

David Anderson: Would the hon. Gentleman apply the same logic to other parts of the public sector such as the health service or defence? If the logic hangs together when applied to this service, why should it not do so when applied to those other services?

Alan Reid: Those are completely different examples. If the question arose in the hon. Gentleman's constituency of allocating public funds to a scanner for his local hospital, to the troops in Afghanistan or to a sorting machine for his local sorting office, I think a survey would establish that the scanner and better equipment for the troops in Afghanistan would rank high in the pecking order. Because Royal Mail is operating in a competitive market, it is important for it to secure private sector expertise. The health service is a national health service for the whole country, which is why it should be in the public sector.
	It was the last Government who introduced competition to the mail business in their Postal Services Act 2000. However, the structure that they created allowed private companies to cherry-pick the most profitable parts of the business, while leaving Royal Mail to deal with the expensive part-delivering to remote parts of the country. Royal Mail is now suffering as a result of the unfair competition created by the last Government's regime, and I am pleased that the Bill will allow Ofcom to remove much of that unfair competition.
	Under the last Government, all that we saw was worsening service. Opposition Members seem to have forgotten that. It was not the fault of the postal workers, but the fault of the competition regime that the Government had created. Mail is now delivered much later in the day than it used to be, Sunday collections have been abolished, and stamp prices rise every year by far more than the rate of inflation. Worst of all, thousands of post offices have closed. I was delighted by the announcement today of a vital £1.3 billion of new funds for the Post Office.

Chris Evans: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Alan Reid: No. I am afraid that I have already taken the two interventions that I am allowed.
	The Post Office is extremely important, and it is also important for the whole Government to back it. Given that it has branches throughout the country, it is in an ideal position to deliver Government services. I hope that we shall not see from this Government some of the silo thinking that we saw from the last Government. I am thinking particularly of the Department for Work and Pensions. Owing to the way in which government is structured in Departments, there is often an incentive for silo thinking, and for looking only at an individual Department's budget and not the wider budget. I can understand the pressures on the DWP to cut costs and therefore perhaps to allow services such as the payment of pensions and benefits to go to a competitor that does not have as wide a network as Royal Mail and the Post Office, but I hope that those pressures will be resisted, that the whole Government will back the Post Office, and that in particular when considering the contract for the payment of benefit cheques, the DWP will continue to give it to the Post Office. Any other private sector competitor does not have the same widespread network.
	The key test of whether I would support the Bill was always going to be, "Does it protect the universal service obligation?" The Bill clearly passes that test. I intervened on the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), because he clearly had not read the Bill. I draw his attention to clause 28(1), which states:
	"OFCOM must carry out their functions in relation to postal services in a way that they consider will secure the provision of a universal postal service",
	and to subsection (2), which states:
	"the power of OFCOM to impose access or other regulatory conditions is subject to the duty imposed by subsection (1)."
	That is the USO.

Michael Weir: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Alan Reid: Very briefly, because I will not get an extra minute, as the hon. Gentleman did following my intervention on him.

Michael Weir: The point I was making is that we have a six-day service now, that the Bill guarantees only a five-day service and that the Business Secretary seemed to think that that was sufficient.

Alan Reid: The Bill requires
	"At least one delivery of letters every Monday to Saturday-
	(a) to the home or premises of every individual or other person in the United Kingdom".
	The hon. Gentleman is getting confused between the Bill and the European directive. The directive guarantees only five days. What the Secretary of State has been saying is that he already has the power under the European Communities Act 1972 to reduce the service to five days, by order, but he has no intention of using it because the Bill guarantees six days. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to read clause 30.
	I am also delighted that clause 44 allows Ofcom to impose a duty on other mail operators to make a contribution towards the cost of the USO if that is necessary. I have been campaigning on that for many years. The previous Government resisted it and I am delighted that this Government have put that in the Bill.
	I support the Bill and congratulate the Secretary of State on bringing it forward. I believe that it covers all angles and that it will deliver sustainable postal services in all parts of the country.

Sharon Hodgson: Reform of the UK's postal services was in the manifesto of both the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats, so it should come as no surprise to anyone in the Chamber that we are considering this Bill so early into the coalition's temporary tenure on the Treasury Benches. What will be a surprise to voters is that, rather than merely allowing for an injection of private investment, the Bill paves the way for a complete sell-off of that vital public service. That goes way beyond what the Liberal Democrats were elected on; they proposed selling 49% to private investors, which is too high for my personal tastes, but at least not a dominant stake.
	I have had a look through the Tory manifesto, which is imaginatively named "Invitation to Join the Government of Britain". I think that the public were led to believe that that was an invitation to them, but as it turned out it was just to a dozen or so Liberal Democrats. From glancing through that fascinating read, it appears that "the post" got lost in it. I see references to Ministers taking posts, to first past the post, and even to the "Post-Bureaucratic Age", whatever that is. What I do not see is a commitment to postal services, or a pledge to allow the complete sell-off of Royal Mail. Indeed, the majority of voters for both branches of the current Conservative party on the Government Benches do not support the sell-off of Royal Mail. As both parties have already shown, however, pre-election promises and pledges are not worth the paper they are written on. Therefore, I am sure that their electorates will be getting used to being treated with contempt.
	As the now Business Secretary once said about the last Labour Government's vital bail-out of the financial sector, this proposal looks like the Government are intending to privatise the profits of a public business and nationalise the losses. I know that many of his colleagues in the yellow branch of the Conservative Party agree with me on that. I am also concerned that once the Royal Mail is privatised it will be another institution that is deemed too big to fail. In the event of a potential investor running out of cash in what remains a fairly unstable worldwide economy, will the Government be forced to step back in and assume control of Royal Mail, thus soaking up a second tranche of liabilities? Of course, I am not saying that the Royal Mail should ever be allowed to fail, but the Government can guarantee that that never becomes an issue only by ensuring that a significant majority stake remains in public ownership.
	On the separation of Royal Mail and the Post Office, there is no international precedent for separating a national main mail operator from its retail arm. Therefore, the Government are in effect having taking stab in the dark-the latest in what looks like a long line of gambles with the future of our country.
	Clause 33 gives Ofcom the power to review the universal service obligation. In the event of complete privatisation, the large private company or consortium of companies would undoubtedly have a slick and well-funded lobbying operation, which they could deploy to press Ofcom to change the terms of the USO, potentially resulting in the loss of a delivery day.

Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Lady agree that our current six-day service, with the delivery tomorrow of first-class post that is posted today, might change under the new regime, meaning that on a cold, wet, windy day people in Kilmood, Cloughey or Buckna would not get their delivery?

Sharon Hodgson: I do agree. A lot of things that we now take for granted would be under threat, including that.
	Several members of the new Government were fairly open prior to the election about their contempt for Ofcom. It is not for me to speculate as to why that might be, but it appeared to coincide with the acquisition by the Tories of a certain powerful new patron who shares that contempt. At any rate, the chances of No. 10 backing Ofcom on maintaining the six-day delivery week, or of even imploring Ofcom to maintain it, seem fairly slim. Can the Minister today give a guarantee to the House that Ofcom will not be leant on from any quarter-or, better still, will he undertake to remove the flexibility entirely at a later stage of the Bill's proceedings?
	I realise that many other Members wish to speak, so I will limit the length of my remarks. The majority of Members recognise that reform of postal services is needed to secure the long-term future of Royal Mail and to maintain the universal service obligation, but the Government have no mandate to introduce the Bill as currently drafted. Allowing the sell-off of Royal Mail is not wanted by my constituents and nor is it wanted by many Members on both sides of the House or the wider public. It is certainly not wanted by the employees, even with the promise of bunging them a few shares as a sweetener. The only people who do want it are the potential investors and their friends on the Treasury Bench. The interests of this narrow constituency do not justify the Government's taking an ideological sledgehammer to a nut that does not necessarily need to be cracked.

Richard Graham: I am conscious that we all come to this debate with our own scars of individual experience. Mine came in the ward of Kingsholm, a few hundred yards from where the Domesday Book was written, in my constituency of Gloucester. There, only two years ago, I watched my predecessor pose beside photographers while standing under a banner that proclaimed, "Save our post office", but then vote in this Chamber against a motion to halt post office closures. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) said that she was concerned about the prospect of a big broken society. What I saw that day in Kingsholm was the very model of a big broken Government.
	I did not take up the position of secretary of the all-party group on post offices to sit in the Chamber and watch another programme of 500 post office closures be passed. I have always believed that the best way forward is through a combination of much greater investment in Royal Mail, which handles the sorting, delivery and collection, and greater commercial freedom for post offices, which are independent small businesses; they are franchises and they need to be able to channel more services to our communities over their counters.

Jesse Norman: Is it not fair to say that the Government are making an attempt in very good faith to reshape the commercial conditions of the Post Office, which includes the removal of the pension obligation, the creation of greater employee ownership and a liberalisation in the market? Is it not that combination that will give the Post Office potential to grow and thrive?

Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and what he describes is precisely why he and I welcome what the Secretary of State said. I also pay tribute to the detailed work done by the Post Office Minister before this debate.
	Interestingly, the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) called for a Postal Services Bill-lite. It would be light in every way when it comes to investment because by trying to insist on Government retention of a majority stake-precisely what the previous Labour Government proposed in their Bill, which they unfortunately failed to take forward-he is condemning Royal Mail to not being able to get that investment. No private investor would be able to match the sort of investment in Deutsche Post, to which I alluded, of £15 billion unless they had a controlling stake in the company.
	As we have heard, the Bill makes it clear that the Hooper report's essential demand for greater investment and modernisation, despite the progress made in the modernisation agreement between Royal Mail and the Communication Workers Union, is vital to the future of this great British asset. The Labour party has not left this Government the luxury of providing that investment themselves. We can provide it only by attracting it from the business sector.

Jake Berry: Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way of bringing such investment into the company is this privatisation? Does he also agree that this may bring with it the rigours of the private sector in terms of efficiency?

Richard Graham: My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I think that he, like me, would support the new chief executive of Royal Mail, who is taking steps in precisely the direction he describes.
	My second point relates to the expansion of opportunities for our post offices, which hon. Members on both sides of the House agree are such a vital feature of our communities. The Bill paves the way for a much greater opportunity for post offices to be Government front offices, offering them as outlets for services for those in our communities, especially people who do not use the internet. That could include the certification of documents, hard copy form applications and access to all our banks, which I shall discuss in a moment. I very much look forward to the newly formed Gloucestershire Credit Union's services being available to the poorest and most vulnerable in Gloucester through our post offices.
	There is still work to be done by all parties involved, and I wish to make several specific recommendations. First, the Government should be able to confirm as soon as possible that the Department for Work and Pensions will renew the green giro service or the access to benefits in our post offices for communities. Secondly, Ofcom should agree a significant increase in the current 12p to 14p pricing of the final mile of delivery, which has been under-charged for too long. Thirdly, Royal Mail should confirm its own support-I hope that this will also have Government support-for a new 10-year contract for the inter-business agreement with Post Office Ltd. Fourthly, Post Office Ltd should come up with detailed plans for its own mutualisation. Fifthly, large banks, especially those that are partly or significantly nationalised, should confirm that post offices will be able to access all their services over the counter. Lastly, it will be incumbent on all of us in our constituencies to ensure that we give maximum support to our post offices.
	There is one last point to make. We know that only a third of post offices are profitable and that more than 6,000 are not making profits. Of course, the Government's one-off injection of £1.34 billion will help enormously and we should all be very grateful for that, but none the less these are small businesses. If a sub-postmaster decides to retire or to give up the business, this Government and this Bill can offer no guarantee that the post office will stay open. What they can do is provide a guarantee that there will be no further Government-driven programme of post office closures. It will then be incumbent on us all to try to ensure that the post offices are attractive enough to have a wave of new applicants.
	I hope that I have shown where I believe there is work still to be done by all parties involved and also that this Bill offers a real way forward to respond to the three things that we all support: a flourishing collection, sorting and delivery service by Royal Mail; the universal delivery; and thriving community post offices. That is what we want to achieve, that is what the Bill offers and that is why I shall support it. There should never again be the shambles of the Kingsholm post office scenario.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Dawn Primarolo: Order. May I gently remind hon. Members that there are still 16 Members who would like to speak in the debate and that interventions lengthen speeches? So that hon. Members can help each other out, I would be very grateful if they would keep an eye on the clock. If they can speak for less than six minutes, that would help enormously.

Tom Blenkinsop: I want to pose questions to the Government and to make some points, several of which have already been made, based not only on the general public's fear of what postal privatisation might mean for Royal Mail, but on why previous privatisations show that this privatisation and its minimum of 10% shares offered to current employees are not great enough or dynamic enough an offer to revolutionise how such a business could go forward in restoring, as Lord Young puts it, a "sense of ownership" for public sector workers. I want to ask why mutualisation of the Post Office has not been offered to Royal Mail, too, and to draw on the broader point that the Post Office and Royal Mail are inextricably and obviously linked and that their division weakens the service. I also want to show how the mutualisation of the one and the privatisation of the other will only ensure that both fail.
	Historically, if we consider examples of previous privatisations of companies in the UK with fewer than 50,000 employees, none had a percentage of shares going to employees above 10% of all shares. That precedent of 10% shares sales to workers was set in 1987 by Rolls-Royce. Today, in 2010, the Royal Mail has 150,000 employees, more than three times that amount, yet the share sale proposed for staff is 10%. Why?
	Why cannot the Royal Mail be mutualised alongside its Post Office sister? Why has that option not been considered to allow evidence-led policy? That proposition would allow better interdependent models of co-operation between Royal Mail and the Post Office. I remind the House that the Post Office depends on Royal Mail to provide it with one third of its revenue.
	The National Federation of SubPostmasters is seeking a 10-year deal with Royal Mail, a deal that the Con-Dem Government will not guarantee as they have still not clarified if Deutsche Post or the Dutch-run TNT will take over, rather than have a proper stock market share float. Also, the findings of a recent UNI Post & Logistics study into postal services liberalisation throughout the world are not encouraging and should be considered to inform evidence-led policy.
	Postal privatisation has already occurred in a number of countries. Normally, the national operator is transformed into a corporation and split into several companies. Privatisation then follows.

Neil Carmichael: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Blenkinsop: I would normally, but I am pressed for time.
	Liberalisation is often introduced piecemeal, with the private sector being handed a slice of the pie at each stage. The report found that competition was often based on price-related targeting, as a result of which many new companies home in on niche targets and cherry-pick, concentrating on business-to-business, business-to-consumer, dense urban markets or bulk mail. Previously, Royal Mail was able to use profitable bulk mail business to cross-subsidise unprofitable but socially necessary deliveries to remote areas, but private competitors have snatched 40% of bulk mail in downstream contracts. As a result, Royal Mail's £233 million profit in 2006-07 was transformed into a loss of £279 million the following year. Privatisation and liberalisation have resulted in huge job losses and exerted pressure on wages and conditions.

Chris Evans: Like me, my hon. Friend is a former trade union official. He knows that-

Dawn Primarolo: Order. This is not a conversation.

Chris Evans: My hon. Friend knows that TNT has a terrible track record on employee relations. If it takes over Royal Mail, will productivity be affected in terms of worker happiness?

Tom Blenkinsop: As a former trade union official, who often likes to stand and cannot normally sit down, I agree with my hon. Friend. Between 1996 and 2006, Germany's Deutsche Post axed more than 21,000 full-time and 12,000 part-time jobs. In some cases, the employment situation has been transformed beyond recognition. In Holland, the 27,000 mail deliverers employed by the three major companies have service contracts rather than employment contracts, thus they are without employment protection, holiday pay, disability insurance and entitlement to unemployment benefits.

David Anderson: The rigours of the private sector.

Tom Blenkinsop: Exactly.
	In Germany, only 18% of the jobs created by Deutsche Post's competitors are full time. Deutsche Post cut average pay by 30%, but things are even worse in the new competitors, where delivery workers in western Germany earn 40% less than their Deutsche Post colleagues and delivery workers in eastern Germany earn 50% less than their Deutsche Post colleagues. The disparity is starker still in Holland, where the total payroll cost for a postal worker employed by the main operator is €23 an hour compared with just €7.60 an hour for someone who works for its competitors, which pay by the piece.
	The Bill provides no real protection for service users, irrespective of definitions of a universal service obligation. Clause 50(1) states:
	"A consumer protection condition may require postal operators to be members of an approved redress scheme."
	That is useless. Any future privatised service must be a member of such a scheme in order to give the consumer redress. The word "may" allows an opt-out and no consumer redress.
	Clause 50(5) states:
	"A consumer protection condition may require postal operators...to provide information to OFCOM."
	Again, the word is "may". There is no requirement that the provisions are checked.
	In conclusion, we are not looking at something new today. Other countries have gone down this road, and the result is a bad one for the staff, the business, other businesses and the general public. Put simply, if people live in a rural or far-flung area, are poor or are unable to pay for a promised premium service, they will suffer. What use to a postal worker is a market share in their own demise? What use to the general public and business, as service users, is a purely profit-driven postal business with no consumer redress, rather than a postal service that serves the public?

Rebecca Harris: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, as the future of the postal service is a long-standing interest of mine, not least as the director of a company that was reliant on a dependable, reliable and efficient postal service. I do not underestimate the public attachment to Royal Mail and the wide interest in the implications of its privatisation. Given its universal obligation, everyone-businesses and the public-has an interest in Royal Mail's continued success.
	An objective look at the situation is necessary. Richard Hooper made it clear to the previous Government, and has made it even clearer to this one, that Royal Mail urgently needs investment to improve its service to make it more efficient, competitive and effective in a more crowded and shrinking market. I do not want to underestimate the progress that Royal Mail and the unions have already made in that respect, as Hooper has also made clear.
	The key question is how that progress can be accelerated. Investment is the key, and we need to ask ourselves how Royal Mail can bid for extra Government investment against the background of the economic inheritance that the previous Government left this Government, and other pressing claims on public funds such as defence, health and education. Royal Mail's pension deficit is growing all the time, and the situation is becoming increasingly urgent, if Royal Mail is, in the Secretary of State's words, to "survive and thrive".
	The key proposals in the Bill cannot come soon enough, if we are to secure the future of our national postal service. These include committing to protect the universal service obligation, clearly demerging Royal Mail, protecting the post office network, taking over the burgeoning pension liabilities and enabling Royal Mail's 150,000 employees to have share rights. The share deal will give employees a leading role in the privatised new company. They will be able to bring their combined experience to bear in ensuring its success under new management. That deal is also important if an investor is to be attracted to Royal Mail to provide the fresh cash injection that we urgently need, because any investor will want reassurance that moves to improve the business will be strongly supported by employees. The generous share deal will give investors precisely that confidence, and it is one reason why the Bill is far more attractive to potential investors and Royal Mail employees than the failed attempt by the previous Government to part-privatise.
	I am extremely pleased that the Government are also protecting consumers by ensuring that the Post Office is not included in the privatisation and by categorically stating that there will be no repeat of the mass closures that almost everybody across the UK had to endure under the previous Government.

David Anderson: Does the hon. Lady accept that more post offices closed in the years before the Labour Government than during their 13 years in office?

Rebecca Harris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that interesting observation.

David Anderson: Does she agree?

Rebecca Harris: I was not here at that time, but it is an interesting historical observation.
	My constituents, like most others across Essex, suffered very badly from the epidemic of disappearing post offices in the past decade, which left many vulnerable constituents isolated and caused entire rows of traders to suffer. I am proud to support the Government in reforming the Royal Mail while ensuring that vital community resources are maintained. I also look forward to any plans that the Government might consider to give local communities and post office employees a chance to benefit from the success of their local branches.

David Anderson: What we have seen today is the Liberal Democrats covering for the long-term view of the Conservative party, which has always wanted to privatise Royal Mail. As far back as 1992 Michael Heseltine was clear about wanting to do that, but the public and Parliament would not let him. He came back in 1994 with plans similar to those put forward by the Labour Government last time round, but the plans failed then, as they did last year. Thankfully, the people of the country did not want that.
	We have heard more and more today about the rigours of privatisation. What that means is taking away the service, screwing the workers into the ground, giving public money to private companies and taking money out of the country. That is what happened with the gas, electricity and water services.

Robert Buckland: I cannot let that comment pass. This is not some ideological crusade; it is about trying to create a modern Royal Mail service for the future. That is in the interests of the work force: we want to protect jobs, not lose them.

David Anderson: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman mentions the work force because I can now ask him, if he believes in the new politics, why not ballot the work force? If they say yes to privatisation, we will all shut up and go home. We will walk through the Aye Lobby if that is what the work force want-but I think he would be on a losser.
	There are other examples. When we were telling Sid to privatise all the utilities, we were also creating the pensions mess that we are cleaning up today. The 13 years of pensions holidays under previous Tory Governments led to Royal Mail facing 38 years of paying back pensions. That is the main reason for today's comments about the public having to pick up the bill. As someone said earlier, we will get all the bad parts and the private sector will get all the good parts. That is exactly what happened with the coal industry: we privatised it and now we are buying coal from Ukraine and China. We put 200,000 miners on the dole, but that does not matter: it is the rigours of privatisation. The rigours of privatisation mean that 6,000 in China will be killed in coal mines this year, but nobody on the Government side cares about that. And what happened with the rail services? What happened with Railtrack? It failed. What happened with GNER and the east coast main line? They failed. What happened with east coast railways? They failed. The public sector had to come in and pick up the mess, and that is what will happen here.
	We have also seen the development of markets in the health service. We had compulsory competitive tendering in the early 1990s-ideologically driven part-privatisation that meant that ordinary workers who had given their lives to public service were sent out to work for the Joe Bloggs cleaning company. We have seen it with foundation trusts and market-led rigours. What are they doing? The hospital in my constituency closed its laundry. Now, 5 million pieces of laundry have to be taken 140 miles, from the north-east to Leicester and back again, because it is cheaper. Those are the rigours of privatisation-forgetting the fact that 90 laundry workers have been sacked.
	We shall see exactly the same thing with Royal Mail. It is clear what we can do in this situation. As I said earlier to the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland)-he and I worked together for the Gurkhas-if he really believes that people want privatisation, he should be honest. Go out and hold a referendum: ask the work force what they think. When Royal Mail is no longer allowed to be called Royal Mail, it will no longer be allowed to put the Queen's head on stamps. The mail service will probably be subject to VAT.
	It is clear that the public do not want the measure. The workers do not want it. The majority of people on the Opposition Benches do not want it, and the truth is that half the people on the Government Benches do not want it either, but they are being driven-

Anna Soubry: In my constituency there are 700 postal workers at the Beeston sorting office. To my knowledge, not one of them has written to urge me not to support the Bill. Two of them came to the Commons today to ask me not to support it-two in 700.

David Anderson: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. If she would like to meet me outside in the Lobby, I will take her name and address and pass it to the general secretary of the Communication Workers Union. I will ask him to write to his 700 members at Beeston to ask them to contact their MP and tell her that they are happy to work for TNT or Deutsche Bank, and that they will be happy to see their pensions, shift allowances and jobs go down the river. If that is what the workers want, that is what the rigours of privatisation will deliver. The track record cannot be denied. We can pretend it does not happen, but that is the truth.
	It is clear that there is nothing new in the Bill-

Robert Halfon: It seems that clause IV is alive and well in the Labour party. According to the hon. Gentleman's logic, should he not nationalise everything? Why not put Sainsbury's and Tesco under state ownership?

David Anderson: I welcome the hon. Gentleman's view; perhaps he would like to join us. A number of us on the Labour Benches believe that doing away with vital public services has been a huge mistake. It cannot be denied. The truth is before our very eyes. The people of this country do not want their water, gas and electricity to be provided by the French and the Germans, and they certainly do not want their postal services to be delivered by the Dutch, the Germans or the French, which is where we shall end up if the Conservatives and the dupes who support them have their way.

Damian Collins: Following the remarks of the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) much earlier in the debate, I begin by pointing out that in some ways the Bill is too good to be true. He raised concerns that people in rural areas, especially in Scotland, would no longer have a universal service if the Bill is passed. However, the answer is that of course they will. People who live in built-up areas will continue to subsidise the post of people who live in rural and distant areas. People who live in constituencies in the south-east of England, such as mine in Folkestone and Hythe, will continue, relatively, to subsidise people who live in remote areas, because we all believe in universal postal provision, and that is included in the Bill.
	Our concerns are that Royal Mail will run out of money to sustain its current universal six-days-a-week service unless its pension deficit is solved and, crucially, the business is transformed. That view is not unique to Government Members; it was expressed by the former Secretary of State, Lord Mandelson, when the previous Postal Services Bill was introduced in the House of Lords last year. There is a degree of common ground. It is a question of how we go forward in a way that gives value to customers of Royal Mail and the Post Office, and the taxpayers who must pick up the liability for the Royal Mail pension pot. Under the provisions of the Bill, the taxpayer will take on a considerable liability, so it is right that in return we should consider how the Royal Mail business can be transformed and work better.
	Hon. Members have spoken about all aspects of the Bill; I shall touch on only a couple of them. Going back to the remarks made by the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) and my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) earlier in the debate, clauses 35 and 37 provide that if Ofcom considers that the efficiency of the universal system can be better delivered with additional suppliers coming in to support that service, it will have the opportunity to advise the Secretary of State accordingly. That can only strengthen the quality of the universal provision. A number of hon. Members on the Government Benches would not see that as a bad thing.

Thomas Docherty: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the great lessons of the privatised utilities is that none of the regulators have had sufficient teeth to stand up for the interests of consumers? Why should the regulator in this case be any different?

Damian Collins: I can speak only from my own experience, having previously worked in the advertising industry, where we encountered the wrath of Ofcom. It seemed only too ready to stand up for the rights of consumers, and I have every confidence that it will do so in the case of postal services too.
	Opposition Members have asked repeatedly what guarantees there are. What guarantees have there been for the Post Office and Royal Mail over the past 13 years, when we have seen thousands of post offices closed? The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) gave an impassioned speech about the removal of post office services and sub-post offices from her constituency. We would all concur with that, and we would all share the view that they play a vital role in the community, but the previous system made no guarantees to those post offices. We have seen a slow withering of the post office network on the vine, a slow reduction in the support for post offices, and their closure. We cannot go on like that.
	I am interested in the provisions of clauses 26 and 27, which give authority to postal service providers and get rid of the current licensing regime. The Secretary of State believes that that will be more efficient and cheaper for businesses. I would be encouraged if the same mechanism allowed new providers to come in. During the debate, hon. Members have asked how new sub-post offices can open and how postal providers can come into the market.
	In my constituency-other hon. Members may have had the same experience-to try to fight the pressure for branch closures, independent businesses fought hard to keep those post offices open. The Enbrook Valley post office in my constituency is a sub-post office run by an independent retailer. He had to fight hard to maintain that provision. He wanted to put a business case together to keep that post office working, and with the support of the local community and money raised by the local community, he did just that. I would like to see more of that, and the process made easier through the Bill.
	I am interested in the work of organisations such as Pub is the Hub, which try to turn pubs into multifaceted businesses, particularly in rural communities, where the post office can play a part too. In a village in my constituency-Elham, where I live-when the post office closed, provision was transferred to a counter operating in the King's Arms pub. Never before had it been realised that there was such demand for picking up books of stamps at lunchtime. There may well be more business models like that which we could encourage, through a mechanism that encourages new providers to come into the post office branch network market.
	I agree that it is right that the post office network should not be privatised as part of the provisions of the Bill. However, that does not mean that there should be stasis around the post office network, with nothing changing. Although we welcome the money that the Secretary of State announced today to support the network, that does not mean that there cannot be innovation in provision and an attempt to attract new providers. I look forward to debating the Bill, especially clauses 26 and 27, and listening to the debate as it progresses through Parliament. May it offer some opportunity for new providers to come in, and for the Secretary of State to encourage and support that.

Russell Brown: I apologise to the House for being absent this afternoon. When I applied to the Speaker to take part in the debate, I stated that I would have to chair a meeting at the offices of the Department for International Development, which was the reason for my absence.
	The Bill is undoubtedly contentious. Although some would like to do so, we cannot separate Post Office Ltd from Royal Mail and that part of the business that the coalition Government seek to privatise. I should declare an interest as Chair of the all-party group on post offices.
	I am deeply disappointed, because, having been in the Chamber when the Secretary of State made his opening remarks, I feel that there has been something of a mad dash to introduce this legislation. I admit that he talked about the right things as far as I am concerned, such as mutualisation and everything that that offers, but I am disappointed, because he should have examined the issue in more detail before we reached this stage of the Bill.
	I am not here to negotiate on behalf of either the employees of Royal Mail or the Communication Workers Union, but 10% shared ownership is almost derisory, and a greater shared ownership figure might have been more acceptable to some at the forefront of the issue.
	I accept that there is a demand for modernisation and for greater efficiencies. I do not think that anyone in this House fails to recognise that. I appreciate that some Members will have visited their local sorting offices, but I say to Members from all parts that if they speak to their local staff, as I regularly do at my five local sorting offices, they will hear each and every worker, including their managers, say that they have done their utmost to adhere to what the company has asked of them. They have modernised.
	We have reached the stage at which any further attempts to make some of those businesses more efficient will result in job losses, and employees are at a total loss to understand what more they can do as individuals in that work force. We have seen 50,000 jobs lost, and, if the Bill is passed and delivers what many Opposition Members think it will, we could see another 50,000 to 60,000 job losses.
	I represent a rural constituency, and the universal service obligation is sacrosanct, but there is absolutely nothing in the Bill which provides a cast-iron guarantee that the current six-days-a-week delivery to every door will continue. I mentioned-and I wish to mention again-that I recognise that there is a black hole in the pension fund, but it is a significant pension fund, and I issue a warning to the coalition Government. I sincerely hope that they go nowhere near that pension fund to do what the previous Conservative Government did to the bus employees' pension fund after bus deregulation.
	This is a Bill with unintended consequences: the closure of post offices. I know that Government Members have mentioned what the previous Labour Government did, but if they cast their minds a little further back, they will find that thousands of post offices closed on an ad hoc basis. There was no structure to their closure at all, and I say to the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins)-it was a point that I wished to make in an intervention on him, but I shall make it now-that the things that keep post offices open today are, without a shadow of a doubt, the access criteria. I do not know whether the Government intend to keep those criteria in place.
	Some 41% of the business that our post offices transact daily is as a result of the inter-business agreement. The National Federation of SubPostmasters wants a 10-year agreement, and anything less than that will result in post offices withering on the vine. So, there is a warning: the 10-year agreement that has been asked for should be carefully considered.
	"Post bank" is not the white knight that we all expected, but it must be introduced. In a briefing, the postal services Minister did talk about asking Departments to provide additional business for our post offices. I only wish that that could happen. If it were possible, and if we were able to make it happen, it would have happened by now.
	The issue of green giros has been raised, but the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), who is responsible for pensions, refused to meet a small delegation from our all-party post offices group.
	I thank you for calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I urge caution on this Bill and on the unintended consequences that it could bring.

Jake Berry: Today's debate has been very interesting. I will set out-briefly, because time is short-the reasons why I support the Bill.
	Years of falling mail volumes-down 15% since their peak-together with low profit margins and a huge pension deficit have mortally wounded our Royal Mail. Doing nothing is not an option if we are to retain a world-class mail service and, most importantly, retain our world-class work force within it. Real reform of Royal Mail was put in the "too difficult" pile by the previous Government, but there were some attempts to change our post office network, including the closure of 5,000 post offices. In my constituency, this included our village shop, and it was a double blow to the rural community. We have lost services such as Sunnyhurst post office, which is still missed by the residents of Darwen. Nothing could have better shown the chaos of this closure programme than the former MP backing the campaign by the  Lancashire Telegraph to keep the post office in Darwen and then voting in this place against our proposal to stop such closures.
	These losses of service have been most keenly felt in our rural areas, where a lack of broadband and other forms of rural isolation mean that residents are heavily reliant on the postal service to keep in touch with the outside world. I have recently written to Royal Mail after learning that postmen working in the village of Edgworth in my constituency have been instructed to return undelivered packages to Bolton rather than to our small post office in Edgworth. Residents are now expected to make a 14-mile round trip and use a sizeable part of their day to collect parcels. Other poor reforms by the previous Government included the loss of the morning delivery in many areas, including at my house, where we wait until 1 pm or 2 pm for the post.
	The Government's proposals, set out in this Bill, are a once-in-a-generation opportunity to transform the culture of Royal Mail. It will open it up to private investment and expose it to the rigours of private sector efficacy but it will, crucially, maintain the universal postal service. When looking at these proposals, we must keep in mind that the real experts in this field do not sit in this House-they are the people who work in Royal Mail. That is why I am delighted that the Bill includes the principle of 10% ownership for employees and the mutualisation of the Post Office.
	Supporters of the radical changes that this Government have brought about in schools know that the expertise for running schools does not rest in Whitehall. Likewise, the Bill acknowledges our world-class work force, their passion for the business, their dedication to service and their future at the heart of Royal Mail. If Royal Mail is to modernise, it must bring its work force along with it, and I believe that the 10% ownership measure will do that. Crucially, however, it must avoid militant opposition to privatisation. During the last Royal Mail strike in Manchester, the business in which I worked moved from sending out approximately 1,000 invoices a month via mail to an online and e-mail invoice delivery system. I am sorry to say that after the strike ended, having spent time and effort on moving the system online, we never went back to posting our invoices again. I urge the unions not to swing a wrecking ball at Royal Mail. Royal Mail undoubtedly faces challenges from falling mail volumes, but we must be realistic, and I am sure that a modern Royal Mail with proper employee participation would meet every challenge ahead of it.
	Although we currently have 51 licensed postal operators, Royal Mail has not previously been attractive to outside investment owing to its pension deficit. Again, doing nothing is not an option. In this Bill, the new coalition Government take on the deficit, putting the company on a firmer footing while protecting the pensions of all Royal Mail employees past and present. I support the Bill, I support the universal postal service, and I applaud the principle of employee participation.

Stella Creasy: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate about the future of our postal services. I speak as both a Labour and a Co-operative Member, concerned to ensure that, as co-operative ideals and models become popular, there is clarity about the opportunities that those ways of working present and the models that can be used. I speak also as a Member who has tabled a ten-minute rule Bill for presentation next Wednesday on the benefits to be gained by securing affordable credit for all citizens, through credit union services in a tie-up with the post office network. I wish to focus on that point today.
	I tabled my Bill because I am deeply concerned that the Government have not yet understood the nature of personal debt and poverty in communities such as mine, in Walthamstow. I therefore urge Ministers to do more to revise their plans to ensure that the post office network can offer affordable sources of credit. From the credit review that they are undertaking, they will be aware of the need to do more to ensure that people can access a wide range of financial services. I hope, through my Bill, to convince them not to ignore those for whom credit cards and store cards are not an option, and to protect those who can access credit only at extortionate prices through doorstep lending companies. They can do that, not least, by dealing with the lack of competition in the financial services market for those who are on low incomes or have bad credit ratings.
	It is worth remembering that six lenders account for 90% of the home credit market, and that there is little competition to drive interest rates down. Provident, which accounts for 60% of the doorstep lending market, has stated that, thanks to the Government's policies, it expects a growth in its target market, which, in layman's terms, means the poor and those unable to access credit through mainstream banks. Increasing access to credit unions that offer loans at more affordable rates by working with the post office network would help tackle that monopoly and protect consumers. The Bill provides the ideal opportunity to do what the previous Government wanted to do and build on that partnership.
	Consumer Focus, an organisation that many Members have quoted today but which the Government seem to want to dismantle, has been a powerful advocate of the potential for credit unions and post offices to work together. The suggestion has been promoted also by the Association of British Credit Unions, whose work on the matter I commend.
	Today, we have heard that the Government intend to protect the post office network through the provision of a subsidy, but we have no detail about how much of that will actually go to post offices and how much could be diverted, for example into the costs of a restructuring. One suggestion that I would make to Ministers is that some could be used to support the one-off investment needed to provide the common back-office platform that would allow technical integration between Post Office banking services and those of local credit unions. Consumer Focus has championed that idea because of the benefits to both credit unions and post offices.
	Such a link-up would enable post offices to offer a wider range of services, including, critically, instant small-scale loans of anything from £30 to £400, which are a vital service for many of my constituents. Credit union customers would also be able to access their accounts and make payments at the post office, and in turn each transaction would generate a transaction fee, which could provide a new stream of revenue for the Post Office.
	So far so great, but the question is how to make that happen, not just in one post office but across the country. I wish to push the Minister to give some detailed answers on that point. The Bill is intended to keep the Post Office in public ownership by turning it into a mutual, but the devil is in the detail of the proposals. As the Government accept, only 370 of the 11,500 post office branches are directly managed by the Post Office. The rest are sub-contracted to franchisees. That means that the vast majority of post offices depend on other businesses as well as the Post Office to remain sustainable. Without a clear and confirmed business plan that will bring in new sources of funding, there is little hope that their services, and so their stores, will continue. Ministers must understand that that generates a lot of concern among those of us interested in the potential tie-in between credit unions and post offices.
	The post office becoming the front office for government would offer one stream of revenue, but it is worth remembering that the benefits business of post offices has declined since 2003, a trend that is likely to continue given the Government's benefit reform plans. Even if that business is sustained, what they offer with one hand they risk taking away with the other. With no obligation for the reconstituted and privatised Royal Mail to work with the Post Office, we risk the core business of post offices shrinking. The Government have suggested that a privatised Royal Mail could still use the Post Office to provide its counter services and offer some protection through an internal business agreement, but given that they cannot guarantee that that will be commercially binding, it is not a certainty. That is why the Co-operative party has set out its concerns about the proposals today.
	Let us be clear: those of us who are co-operators would like to see a people's Post Office, with the public, postmasters and others having a say in how it is run. However, there is deep concern that that cannot be delivered through the privatisation of Royal Mail, because it will put so much of the business on which post offices rely at risk. Royal Mail business accounts for approximately a third of Post Office business, so clearly, any reduction would mean that thousands of post offices will become unsustainable and close. We therefore do not accept the idea that the Post Office and Royal Mail should be treated separately. Those of us who see the relationship that could be achieved between the credit union movement and the post office network see the clear link between the Post Office and Royal Mail. We therefore see the importance of setting out how to protect the 11,500 post office branches.
	As I said at the beginning of my speech, there is a desperate need to support those on lower incomes to access financial services and affordable credit. I failed last night to persuade Treasury Ministers to take those concerns seriously and to meet me and campaigners to discuss them and my Bill. I hope to fare a little better today, so I ask again for Ministers to meet me and campaigners to consider how we can extend affordable credit to all in our society, and how we can support that through post office network reforms. Only in that way will we be sure that the potential tie-in between credit unions and post offices can be secured. Without such guarantees, there cannot be an open branch network to support the credit union movement, and the Opposition will return the Bill to sender.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Nigel Evans: Order. There is half an hour left and eight Members are trying to catch my eye. If everybody shows restraint, we might just get everybody in.

Priti Patel: I will show some restraint, Mr Deputy Speaker.
	I should declare an interest. I am not a member of the CWU, but I am the daughter of a former sub-postmaster whose post office business was closed down under the previous Labour Government during their ruthless post office closure programme. It will come as no great surprise to the House that I support not only the Bill but the need for root-and-branch reform of Royal Mail. We need to innovate to make Royal Mail not only economically viable but sustainable in the long term and efficient.
	We heard from the Secretary of State that Richard Hooper's report earlier this year pointed to the dire financial position of Royal Mail. Clearly, that is unsustainable. He also said that the injection of private capital to modernise Royal Mail was vital. I have sat through most of the debate, and I am stunned by Opposition Members' lack of enthusiasm for reform and modernisation, particularly given their legacy.
	There are some very good points in the Bill. It is worth noting that the pensions of Royal Mail workers will be safeguarded. After all, earlier this year, a CWU publication entitled, "Time to Deliver-Royal Mail Pension Fund Deficit", stated that the previous Government's
	"decision not to proceed with the Postal Services Bill has meant this vital pension reform has been shelved. This position is untenable. The government must take responsibility for the deficit if the industry is to succeed."
	Our Government should be congratulated on their boldness. They have taken on that commitment and the liabilities for the record and historic deficit, which is vast.
	Much more in the Bill should be welcomed not only by my hon. Friends but by Opposition Members, including safeguarding the universal postal service and the provisions of clause 30. My constituents will be reassured by the commitment to the universal postal service. As the daughter of a former sub-postmaster, I know how vital that is. I have a very rural constituency, and many of my residents will be reassured.
	My constituents will also welcome the measures that safeguard the future of the Post Office in clause 4, which states that no more closure programmes will be introduced. I find the hypocrisy of Opposition Members astonishing. They are scaremongering and trying to mislead the public, but it is about time that they faced facts. We are committed to ensuring that there are no more post office closures. It is utterly disappointing to hear their tone and some of their criticisms. However, Government Members should not be surprised. We should remember that the Labour Government had the chance to reform and modernise the Post Office, but because of their union paymasters, they simply bottled out and failed.
	There is a lot to be grateful for in the Bill. The accusations of ideology are utter nonsense. I welcome the Bill because it will lead to much needed, crucial reform in terms of competition and deregulation. We are getting rid of an over-regulated service and bureaucracy, and we are empowering Royal Mail workers-share ownership is absolutely vital. On that basis alone, I support the Bill. I think this is a marvellous Bill going forward.

Gregg McClymont: It was enlightening to discover that the father of the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) was a sub-postmaster. I understand that her great hero was the daughter of a shopkeeper. Let me suggest that the style that she has adopted is somewhat similar.
	We have heard a lot today about the Post Office and the implications that the privatisation of Royal Mail will have for it. In most countries, collection and delivery services, as well as the network of post offices-that is, the universal service obligation-are protected by statute. That is the case in the United States of America, and in the two countries with the most successful mail companies in the world: Netherlands and Germany. The detailed rules in Germany are as follows. There must be a post office in each community, designated a "local centre" by planning regulations. There must also be a post office in each community of 4,000 inhabitants. In urban areas, customers must be no further than 2,000 metres from a post office, and in areas not otherwise covered, a mobile service must be provided. In effect, those rules mean that Deutsche Post must keep open a minimum of 12,000 post offices.
	The Bill contains no specific criteria regarding post office numbers. That would not have mattered, had an integrated mail and postal entity remained in state ownership. I say that because despite what the Secretary of State said earlier, it is indeed the case that the relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office was structured by Government ownership. Of course it was: it was structured by the criteria that the Government set and under which those two entities existed. Let me be clear: there is no requirement in the Bill for any mail company to use the existing post office network. If Royal Mail ceases to use the full postal network, the Post Office will be bankrupt.
	Predictably, and in order to deflect attention from that question, the Government have today announced what seems to be a large subsidy, although I would caution hon. Members on both sides of the House about that. The devil will be in the detail, because not only does the £1.3 billion announced cover the entire period of the spending review, but there is no assurance that all the money will go on a subsidy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) said, the money could be used for restructuring or other management costs.
	In the end, there is no substitute for sound protection of the network through regulation. It would be dangerous in the extreme to make the post office network solely dependent on the tender mercies of the Treasury. What the Government propose is a structure that puts the long-term future of the Post Office in grave danger, with the faultline concealed by the creation of a short-term subsidy. What the Minister is doing, when one dispenses with the smoke and removes the mirrors, is putting in place a policy that, down the line, will facilitate the shutting of post offices. That will happen at a point in the not-too-distant future, when the Treasury's munificence is withdrawn.
	I said earlier that most countries had statutory rules protecting the number of post offices. Until now, there has been one notable exception to that rule: Sweden. Sweden adopted plans that bear some resemblance to those advanced by the Minister. The National Audit Office passed the following harsh judgment on the practice in Sweden, saying that
	"its attempts to reform its post offices network were drastic, poorly thought out, and initially were most unpopular. It is clear that"
	the Swedish postal service
	"was acting freely and without government interference until the unpopularity of the changes introduced in 2000 onwards became apparent. At this point political pressure was brought to bear."
	I do not know which management consultants the Swedish Government consulted, but I do know from the Wikipedia entry for the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) that he spent his career before he became an MP privatising mail services around the world. When I last debated the issue with him, he refused to engage with these detailed questions. I now know that that is not because he did not understand them. Might it be because the Treasury is insisting that the long-term demise of 7,000 rural post offices is a price that must be paid to ensure that the equity price for Royal Mail remains high?

Julian Sturdy: Before us today is a truly national piece of legislation. Our postal service is a cornerstone of British life. It is a frequent source of frustration for many, alongside the weather and-particularly on this side of the House-the BBC, but it is also a traditional source of reassurance. Remarkably, a postal service was first made available to the general public back in 1635 when Charles I was on the throne. Over the years, it has evolved and adapted, albeit slightly slowly at times, but even today people up and down the country still depend heavily on our postal services. That is particularly the case in rural areas, including many of the villages in my constituency. Local post offices are often the commercial bedrock of such villages, the sole shop in the area and a gateway for correspondence to reach any destination in any part of the world. They are also a lifeline for elderly residents.
	In the past, the closure of post offices has caused real problems for local communities, which often launch proactive campaigns to retain their vital services. We have already heard about many such campaigns in the debate today. Indeed, before being elected to Parliament earlier this year, I had visited Westminster on only one previous occasion. I was a parliamentary candidate delivering a petition to No. 10 Downing street with residents from Fulford, as part of our campaign to save our local post office. Sadly, our noble attempts failed, but I saw at first hand how passionate local residents can be about their local services, particularly the post office. I also saw the impact that such losses can have on a community.
	So, let the first premise of today's debate be that the country still values and depends on local post offices. Acknowledging that fact should not, however, make us averse to the reform that our postal service so badly requires. On the contrary; our desire to protect the Post Office should result in greater determination to reform and indeed privatise Royal Mail. By reforming the latter, we will be protecting the former. It is on that basis that I broadly support the Bill.
	As with all difficult pieces of legislation, it is important to remember why we are here. Royal Mail's financial health continues to worsen, with its market share declining. The pension deficit is more than £10.3 billion, and the regulatory regime is not fit for purpose. Royal Mail is not sustainable in its present format, and would eventually fail completely if the status quo were allowed to continue unchecked. These were the conclusions of Richard Hooper's 2008 Government-backed review into our postal services. Richard Hooper has also recently commented on the unnecessary 20-month delay that resulted from Labour's ditched reform plans. In his opinion, the situation has got worse, and doing nothing is simply not a tenable option. Once again, real action is required, and once again, it takes this Government to lead the way.
	By opening up Royal Mail to private investment, the Government will relieve the organisation of its enormous and historic pension deficit, and at least 10% of shares will go to Royal Mail employees. Attracting an injection of private capital into Royal Mail will end the dependence on funding from the taxpayer. New commercial disciplines will be introduced to the business, alongside a new businesslike culture that is driven, focused and capable of delivering the very best service to the public. Privatising Royal Mail will, in essence, secure its long-term future. At the same time, this privatisation ensures that Post Office Ltd is not for sale and that the 11,500 post office branches across the UK will remain in public ownership. Despite what has been said by Labour Members, there will be no further programme of closures, although such a programme frequently occurred under the previous Administration.
	Despite my general enthusiasm for the Bill thus far, I would like to raise one specific point of concern: the future of sorting offices. Unlike post office branches, sorting offices are, of course, operated by the Royal Mail. I have already touched on the local importance of our universal postal service and the role that post offices play in our local economies. The same principle can be applied to sorting offices, so I urge the Government to highlight the importance of retaining sorting offices-at least in every major UK city, such as my own of York-in any negotiations with private investors. I strongly believe in the Government's localism agenda and any attempts to maintain at least city-based sorting offices would, in my view, be welcomed in our northern and rural economies, where such offices often employ many and play an important role in the efficient delivery of postal services.
	In summary, the universal postal service remains a traditional, well respected and relevant part of our national life, but to allow the status quo to continue, out of some nostalgic fantasy, would be devastating in the long run. The reforms in the Bill strike the necessary balance-taking action to control the pension deficit, further modernising our postal services, providing an exceptional employee share scheme and, most importantly, ensuring the survival of post office branches across the country.

Michael Connarty: I declare an interest, as I have worked with the Scottish branch of the National Federation of SubPostmasters over a number of years to oppose the closure of post offices introduced by the last Government, and I will continue to oppose closures. I have also worked with the Communication Workers Union, while my predecessor Harry Ewing-now, sadly, deceased-was a postman and eventually a Minister. I am deeply involved in this, and I am secretary of the liaison group for the Communication Workers Union in this Parliament.
	The Bill does not provide a logical or necessary solution to the problems of Royal Mail, and it is not the only response to the Hooper report. It is, indeed, another Liberal Democrat betrayal. It is not part-privatisation, but a political decision by the Liberal Democrats to join in the carnage in the public sector.

Lorely Burt: rose -

Michael Connarty: I will take no interventions, as many Members wish to speak and I want to take just six minutes.
	This is not about a part-share sale, which was the policy on which the Liberal Democrats were elected, but, to quote from the Bill, it is about allowing
	"for an unrestricted sale of shares in Royal Mail".
	The Bill returns to the 1992 plan to break the link between Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail, with all the duplication of management and logistic structures that it will require, which will eat massively into the £1.2 billion set aside to set up a separate Post Office Ltd. It will tear up the operating synergies, which provide a third of Post Office Ltd revenues from services provided for Royal Mail, and there is no guarantee that these will continue. The current subsidy is £180 million a year; it will have to rise £270 million a year to sustain the post office network in future.
	The problem is that there is no guarantee that the subsidies will be provided. Clauses 11 demands only an annual report and says nothing about what the Government will do to guarantee the post office network that sends the report. The sub-post offices postal and Royal Mail services that are vital to the commercial survival of villages and the sub-post offices in rural and urban areas will be jeopardised.
	The Hooper report called for a number of things, none of which required the privatisation of the Post Office. The final report specifies three necessary elements: private sector investment, the Government taking on pensions, and changing the regulations, as the Bill does-in fact, in that respect, it is exactly the same as the previous Labour Bill. Hooper 1 recommended new management, and we have it, from a noted organisation that has been associated with high-quality services; Moya Greene has come from Canada Post to run Royal Mail. All parts of Royal Mail, including Post Office Ltd, are profitable at this moment. There is no need for a subsidy.
	On the recommendation on pensions, let us look at what happened with BT's pension deficit. The Government thought that they had taken on a liability of £7 billion, but the High Court has just ruled that the liability is an exposure of £24 billion, because it must include everyone who joined BT after its privatisation. There are no guarantees that the same will not happen with this privatisation. The clear and simple way to deal with the matter is to accept that we must nationalise the debt. If we did that now, Royal Mail would not have to pay £291 million a year to service its deficit. The changes involving Ofcom would bring in another £120 million of income, which would make £411 million available to Royal Mail to complete its privatisation.
	Increased efficiency was the basis of the other recommendation in Hooper 1. In a vote in March 2010, there was two-to-one support among CWU members for the new modernisation programme. That was one of the first Hooper 1 criteria. Many opportunities were missed between 2000, the passing of the Postal Services Act and the granting of commercial freedom and the 2010 decision. Loans were given, but the management failed to deal with distribution or with sorting office networks. Sorting machines were bought from France and left uninstalled by the management. Bullying was used to downsize the number of staff in the distribution and delivery centres. The management's actions were based not on efficiency, but simply on a desire to keep people out when they left the service. The chief executive who failed in that regard was given a £2.8 million bonus for his trouble.
	The fully funded modernisation scheme based on the business transformation agreement that was reached in March is a great leap forward, but, as has been said, it will be massively painful. There will be substantial job losses. The whole thing could be handled by means of a change to allow Royal Mail to raise finance directly, without the need for privatisation or the sale of shares.
	Let us examine the myth of necessary privatisation. Share sales do not guarantee investment; they merely move the ownership of shares to another body. Following Hooper 1, it was impossible to find any organisation, even TNT, that would take an interest in buying shares in Royal Mail. The failure came about not because those organisations feared that they would not gain enough control, but because they realised that there was not enough money to be made from the delivery of mail under the present universal service delivery obligation.
	So what will happen? A private equity company will buy into Royal Mail. It will probably borrow money, and then load the debt on to Royal Mail. The business sector will deliver a lot of money to the Treasury rather than to Royal Mail. It is likely that the service will then be split between the part that makes money by picking up and sorting the mail and the part that deals with delivery, which will be dumped on regional sub-contractors who will fail both financially and in terms of delivery. The whole service will then collapse.

Jesse Norman: I have two great interests in the Bill. I speak as chair of the all-party group on employee ownership, which plans to examine the Bill in more detail, and also as head of the Herefordshire Save our Post Offices campaign, which fought hard for several years to prevent local post office closures.
	I was surprised by the partisan nature of some Opposition speeches, because there are many aspects of the Bill that Opposition Members should embrace and support. The Government deserve enormous credit for the speed and energy with which they have addressed a thorny and difficult issue. There is a marked contrast between that and the record of delay and compromise under the last Administration, during a period when the financial position of Royal Mail only became worse.
	I welcome many aspects of the Bill, including the granting of access to new capital for efficiency and modernisation, the excellent arrangements for employee ownership, and the Government's tough and difficult decision to take on the pension deficit-a nettle that the last Government signally failed to grasp. They preferred to keep it off the balance sheet, like the £230 billion of private finance initiative debt with which we have had to deal. There is a real possibility that, once those changes have been implemented, Royal Mail and the Post Office will be able to turn the corner. The idea of a new mutual structure for the Post Office is particularly innovative and important. This is a human capital business, which requires the human touch and the service that a mutual can bring to it.
	However, serious concerns remain. The universal service obligation, which many Members have mentioned, must be preserved. I remind the House of what happened in the telecoms industry, whose privatisation was in many ways highly effective. The universal service obligation in telecoms does not cover either broadband or mobile telephony, but those are exactly the areas in which rural places such as Herefordshire have had a poor deal over the past decade.
	I want to draw particular attention to the issue of back-door closures of post offices. We have a vivid case study of that in my constituency. The village of Pontrilas has an excellent post office and shop, with a sorting office, plenty of parking and disabled access. It is a vital community resource in a very rural area. Recently, the sub-postmaster was sacked by the Post Office for a very small mistake in procedure, from which he derived no personal benefit at all. In any other organisation, that would mean a slapped wrist. His case has gone to appeal but it appears that appeal in the Post Office means one person sitting in judgment on hundreds of cases across the UK. If he loses his job, the effects will be disastrous not merely on him-a man who has had no income for the past six weeks, nor is any to come from the Post Office-but on the shop, which would close. The sorting office would go, too, as most probably would the Longtown post office and its sorting centre up the road in one of the most rural areas of this country.
	Therefore, I ask the Minister to take an interest in the situation and to look at the position at the Pontrilas post office. I ask whether he agrees with my view that such back-door closures should be prevented and should be included within the remit of preserving the post office network. I also ask whether he shares my view that we need to grow our post offices, push more business through them and use them to support our towns and villages.

Nigel Evans: To resume his seat at 6.30, Mr Chris Evans.

Chris Evans: I know that time is short, so I will be as quick as I can. I apologise to any Member if they cannot understand my accent.
	This Bill is one of the great "might have beens." It might have set out a positive policy on employee share ownership. Instead it does not tell us how the shares will be distributed and what employees can do with them. It might have strengthened the link between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. Instead it raises new concerns about the viability of many post offices.
	The Government's plan for the wholesale privatisation of Royal Mail threatens to turn a public service into a private monopoly. The Government have come up with myriad reasons why Royal Mail should be privatised. First, we were told that privatisation was necessary because Royal Mail could not compete. Royal Mail delivers 99% of the mail to 28 million houses, six days a week. Which competitor in their right mind would want to take that on? The idea that Royal Mail is unable to compete with the private sector is complete and utter nonsense.
	We were also told that the privatisation is the only way that Royal Mail can access capital, yet the entire modernisation programme of Royal Mail for the next three years is fully funded. Royal Mail is a profitable business and those profits could and should be retained for future investment.
	The proposal to separate Royal Mail from Post Office Ltd, the postal service's counter network, is of huge concern to many sub-postmasters throughout my constituency. Any retail network losing its main customer base would struggle to remain viable. The Post Office relies on Royal Mail for a third of its income and the fact is that a privatised Royal Mail will be free to use other outlets for its counter services. Should that be followed through, there will be mass closures among local post office branches, and I hope that the Government Members who said that they would campaign to save post offices are getting ready to campaign once the Bill goes through.
	I welcome the proposal for mutualisation of Post Office Ltd, but that does not mean that I do not have reservations. Currently sub-postmasters have £2 billion of their own money invested in the post office network and it is vital that they be granted a far greater say in how Post Office Ltd is run. The success of the Co-operative Group provides an excellent model for Post Office mutualisation. However, any attempt at mutualisation would inevitably fail unless backed by solid actions to get the post office network on its feet, with a viable business model. There will be no mutual option for Post Office Ltd if there is no credible business plan. A 10-year inter-business agreement is an absolute must to ensure Post Office Ltd's viability as both a business and a universal service provider, but the Government have so far refused to look at that. I hope that the Minister does that tonight.
	In conclusion, before it turns to half-past 6, the most important argument against the proposed sell-off is that the public do not want it. The polling is clear on that. They do not want it in Islwyn and they do not want it in the rest of the country. They understand that prices will go up and that the quality of postal services will go down if Royal Mail is sold, and they are right to take that view. The privatisation of Royal Mail makes no political or economic sense and the Bill is nothing but a wasted opportunity.

Nigel Evans: Order. A couple of Members have sat here throughout the debate but, unfortunately, were not called. I know they will be disappointed, but I will make sure that this counts in their favour when they next put in to speak. I call Nia Griffith.

Nia Griffith: I am very sorry to have to say this, Mr Deputy Speaker, but my name is pronounced "Nee-ah Griffith." I just wanted to put that on the record for everybody.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A Welshman getting it wrong! I do apologise.

Nia Griffith: Thank you.
	Today we have been debating a Bill that will lead to the sale of Royal Mail. Many Members have mentioned the fact that the Royal Mail letter service has faced increasing competition from e-mail and text in recent years, and the decline in letter volumes has continued even between the publication of Lord Hooper's original report in 2008 and the update published last month. Many Members have spoken today, and I hope I will be forgiven if I do not mention every one of them by name, but I do want to pick up a few of the points that have been made.
	The hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) serves on the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and he obviously recognises the need for change. He also made the point that good management is vital, and asked the Minister to make clear how he proposes to secure the quality management that is needed. We all want to hear the answer to that question.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) wanted to find ways of taking modernisation forward. He pinpointed what we all need to know: how to provide more business for the post office network. The Bill does not provide an answer to that.
	The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) wanted more information about mutualisation, and I recognise that she and her party have long supported mutualisation. Like many of us, she cannot see exactly how these proposals will work for the post office network.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) highlighted a problem to do with sorting offices, as did other Members with sorting offices in their constituencies. They are concerned about the consequences of the Bill for sorting offices. We also had a brief interlude from the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord), who made an enlightening and enjoyable maiden speech. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."]
	The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), speaking for the Scottish nationalists, stressed concerns about the pressures on a privatised service to reduce the extent of the universal service, and highlighted the particular needs of rural areas, as did many of my hon. Friends. The hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) raised concerns about the future viability of the post office network and stressed the idea that local government and communities need to decide exactly what they want a post office network to do.
	My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) has a long tradition of work with the co-operative movement, and he expressed a fundamental philosophical objection to privatisation: the problem of how to square the inevitable drive to make profits and satisfy shareholders with the provision of a service for the public.
	The hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) emphasised the problems of the current regulatory regime, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) emphasised the importance of the post office network for pensioners and the local economy.
	The hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) spoke in support of the proposed employee share scheme, although he was disappointed that only 10% of the stake will be going to such a scheme. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) explained that if the taxpayer has taken on the burden of the pension deficit, the taxpayer should share in the upside of the transformation of the Royal Mail. He made a compelling case for keeping the majority stake in Royal Mail in public ownership.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) wondered what would happen if a privatised Royal Mail got into financial difficulty, and my hon. Friends the Members for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) and for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) expressed concerns about job losses, and workers' pay and conditions in the private sector.
	We heard speeches in favour of the Bill from the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham)-who did, however, request a specific list of several actions to be taken-and the hon. Members for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry).
	My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) was very concerned about how post offices can be made viable with the loss of Royal Mail business, and I now wish to discuss that particular problem. The Bill, as it stands, provides no guarantee of a continuation of a daily delivery of letters six days a week to every home in the United Kingdom. The Bill, which puts Royal Mail entirely into private hands, provides no guarantee that a wholly privatised Royal Mail would continue to use the post office network to provide its counter services. The Bill breaks the historic link between Royal Mail and the post office. In fact, Royal Mail could use a high street chain whose branches are largely confined to town centres. The Bill even proposes the surreal spectre of a post office network without any Post Office services. With the loss of the one third of its income that comes from Royal Mail business, the post office network could see a closure programme on an unprecedented scale.
	Perhaps we were supposed to be taken in by this and lured into some false sense of security, but today the Secretary of State announced new investment.

Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Lady talks about closures in the post office network on an "unprecedented scale", but could she remind us just how many post offices closed under her Government?

Nia Griffith: I can certainly remind the hon. Gentleman that a viable post office network consists of some 4,000 post offices, and that our Government put in the funding to keep 11,500 post offices open. Not only that, but we guaranteed a £150 million subsidy per year up to 2011, increasing it to £180 million for 2011-12, and designated access criteria to ensure that people would be within a short distance of their local post office, which provided that some 90% of the population would be within a mile of a post office. Without those criteria there would have been wholesale closures before now.

Nicholas Boles: Would the hon. Lady like to tell us the answer to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths)?

Nia Griffith: Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman had been here earlier, he might have heard some information that would have helped him to understand what he has just asked.

Robert Halfon: rose-

Nia Griffith: No, I will not give way; I wish to return to discussing today's announcement about the money, because it is important. Of course new investment is to be made and it will build on the investment that the Labour Government put in, but with no guarantee that the Royal Mail will continue to use the post office network, that could be good money wasted. Furthermore, will the Minister please clarify whether this is new money for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills that was not in last week's comprehensive spending review-or will it lead to cuts in other business spending?
	The Secretary of State gave us little insight into when the mutualisation of the post office network might take place, and no detail at all about the nature of the scheme envisaged. Most notably, he completely failed to make a convincing case for the wholesale privatisation of the Royal Mail; nor has any other speaker done so. Labour Members recognise the crucial role that public ownership has in safeguarding the public interest, and in making sure that taxpayers' money is invested for public benefit and not for private profit. For that reason, we oppose the Bill.

Edward Davey: I start by thanking the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), and all the other hon. Members, for their contribution to today's debate. The quality of the debate is testament to the importance that this House attaches to two of Britain's great institutions: Royal Mail and the Post Office. May I particularly congratulate the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on his maiden speech? He may not be aware of it, but I visited a post office in his constituency to look at one of the pilots for our reforms. Will he send my regards to Mr Patel at the West End post office, who has certainly influenced my thinking?
	Both sides of the House recognise the extent to which our constituents value Royal Mail's universal postal service. No one who witnessed the passionate debates over the previous Government's post office closure programme can underestimate how deeply communities across our country feel about their local post offices. That is why the Government feel so strongly about the Bill: we believe that what is at stake is no less than the very survival of the universal postal service and Britain's network of post offices. If we do not reform those two institutions, attract private capital and private sector disciplines into Royal Mail and tackle the underlying economic challenges to the post office network, their future in a digital world of e-mail and internet services is bleak.
	Some Members wanted me to blame past management for all Royal Mail's ills. My hon. Friends the Members for Northampton South (Mr Binley) and for Southport (Dr Pugh), in particular, wanted me to criticise the quality of the management in the past. I am not going to take up that kind offer. What I will say is that the current chief executive, who was appointed by this Government-Moya Greene, who came from Canada Post-is an excellent chief executive and is already taking the tough decisions that need to be taken. It is interesting that she and Royal Mail support the Bill. They know that we need to get capital into Royal Mail. They know that it needs to be released from Treasury control.

Brian Binley: Will my hon. Friend correct a mistake that he has made? I asked him to explain how he was going to get the exciting new management into the Post Office to ensure its future, and I did not particularly want him to comment on my criticism of past management.

Edward Davey: My hon. Friend has corrected the record, and I can say that we have that good management with Moya Greene.
	The real challenges of the digital world, as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said, apply to all postal administrations across the world. It is the deep challenges that face Royal Mail and the Post Office that make the position of the Opposition at best incredible and at worst downright irresponsible. They know the problems that Royal Mail faces: the decline in letter volumes as e-mail volumes grow exponentially, the large losses the company has made in recent times, and the incomparably large pension deficit. We know that they know, because just last year they said the same thing, and put a Bill before Parliament to address those very same problems. I have that Bill here-but unfortunately it was not brought down the corridor from the other place for us all to debate in this Chamber. If it had been, the similarities in the Bill would have meant that many of the questions raised in this debate could have been debated then. So, let me address some of the questions that I have been asked.
	The hon. Member for Vauxhall talked about foreign ownership. She may remember that when her Government tabled their Bill there was concern on the Labour Benches that TNT and Deutsche Post might buy Royal Mail, so she has an issue to raise. What is often forgotten in this debate is that British investors already own 30% of Deutsche Post. That is the real world: investors invest in good companies.
	The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) had worries that the royal associations would somehow be broken as a result of privatisation. The Queen will continue to approve all stamps that bear her image, as she does now. The Royal Mail brand is valuable and we will put safeguards in place against its misuse. We have initiated discussions with the Palace for that very purpose. I should tell the hon. Gentleman, who claimed that more post offices closed under the Conservative Government, that he is wrong. In 18 years of Conservative government fewer post offices closed than in 13 years of Labour government.
	Coalition colleagues might be concerned because of the similarities between our Bill and the Labour Bill. They are so similar that we half expected the Labour party to feel duty-bound to support our Bill.
	For example, there are almost identical proposals on pensions, except that our proposals are slightly more favourable to Royal Mail employees. The clauses on regulation are also similar, except that our Bill introduces new safeguards for the universal postal service that were strangely absent from the previous Government's Bill. Our Bill rebalances the regulatory framework, putting the universal service and its financial sustainability at its heart.
	Those ought to be major areas of agreement, but we did not get that tonight. We heard some bizarre criticisms from Opposition Front Benchers. They said that we are not addressing the problems of the regulatory system, but it is their regulatory system. They do not appear to have read the Bill, because we are making changes to that regulatory system.
	The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East brought in Ofcom in the previous Government's Bill. It has a duty to reduce unnecessary regulation, which will assist the legislation. The Bill requires cost transparency and accounting separation to deal with many of the regulatory problems that my hon. Friends the Members for Southport and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) raised in the debate.
	Surprisingly, Opposition Members also raised concerns about the pensions solution. The hon. Member for Vauxhall said that it is possible to achieve a solution on pensions without a sale. It would be irresponsible to ask the taxpayer to take on an £8 billion deficit without securing private capital and disciplines and without transferring future risk from the taxpayer. This is a package deal, which is what Hooper argued for and what we are delivering.
	Richard Hooper made it clear that action is needed if we are to secure the future of a universal postal service. His document, "Modernise or Decline", sets out those options. When the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) questioned whether a privatised Royal Mail would threaten the universal service obligation, he was ignoring the evidence put forward by Sir Richard Hooper. I can only think that he has not read the Bill. If he had read it, he would know that it is all about safeguarding the universal postal service of Royal Mail and the Post Office, recognising the particular importance of those services to our rural communities.
	The six-day, one-price-goes-anywhere universal service obligation is enshrined on the face of the Bill, but we have not stopped there. The Bill introduces new safeguards to protect that service, ensuring that any future change must be properly debated by Parliament, must retain the uniformity of the service and must take into account the interests of postal service users, which, of course, includes rural communities. The scaremongering of the Scottish nationalists flies in the face of both the facts and the text of the Bill.
	Returning to the substance of today's debate, despite our producing a Bill that is better than the previous Government's Bill-better for Royal Mail employees' pensions and better for the protection of the universal service-the Opposition are determined to oppose it. Where are the huge differences that are causing the Opposition such problems? We want to provide Royal Mail employees with shares, so workers can benefit from the prosperous future for Royal Mail that our reforms will enable. The previous Government talked about involving employees, but they argued with the unions about giving employees shares and then argued with themselves. This Government are united, and we are going to do it through the largest employee share scheme by percentage of shares of any major British privatisation. For the first time ever, I believe, we are mandating an employee share scheme on the face of a Bill. As a member of a party that championed employee share ownership for decades in opposition, I could not be more proud to present this radical measure to the House tonight. I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who did so much to develop those issues when we were in opposition.
	I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White), who explained how important employee share ownership can be in driving productivity. He was concerned that only 10% of shares will go to the employee share scheme, but I can tell him that the Bill refers to "at least 10%". I was pleased by the support for employee shares from my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman). His chairmanship of the all-party group on employee ownership shows that he knows about that area. He raised a constituency case, which I will take up if he writes to me.
	Another key difference between Labour's Bill and our Bill is our mutualisation proposal for the Post Office. Sub-postmasters, Post Office employees and communities can all have a say in how their post offices are run. The co-operative model is a huge example of the big society and something that the old Fabians would have classed as public ownership, but the Labour party is going to vote against the Bill.
	Let me clarify the mutualisation proposals for the Opposition, who do not seem to understand what they are all about. Post Office Ltd, the national company that franchises to individual post offices and chains of post offices, would become a mutual if our proposals go ahead. We believe that having a national mutual similar to the Co-op would have many practical benefits and would align the incentives of sub-postmasters with those of the company and their main franchisor. When it comes to modernisation and putting services online, it is important to have aligned incentives.

Malcolm Bruce: Will the Minister give way?

Edward Davey: No, I am sorry.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) raised concerns about the conditions for mutualisation. Of course we will have to ensure that there is a viable post office network, otherwise we could not make mutualisation work, so that is one of our conditions. Clause 7 makes it clear that a mutualised post office network would have to be "for the public benefit", so that is also a clear condition.
	Despite the fact that our Bill is better for Royal Mail employees, Royal Mail, the Post Office, customers and the taxpayer, the Opposition still oppose it. What is their problem? The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East, the former Minister of State for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs, said that it is about ownership but he did not ask the next question: what is the difference between the shareholdings to which the previous Government and this Government were prepared to agree? That principle concerns about 0.2% of the shares-the extra shares that they were not prepared to sell but we are. The sale of those shares will free Royal Mail from Treasury control and will enable it to be the master of its own fate and to invest for the future without coming cap in hand to the taxpayer. New Labour has been dying for some years but with the opposition to this Bill, old Labour has returned. I thought that I would be in danger of being called Red Ed with the bail-out of the pension plan, but the real Red Ed is on the Opposition Benches-ideology before reality, dogma before common sense and, worst of all, vested interest before national interest.
	The idea that public ownership has delivered a successful Royal Mail and post office network clearly is not right. Perhaps Opposition Members are aware that Royal Mail shed 65,000 jobs during the 13 years of Labour government, so public ownership did not deliver for workers. Let us consider the experience under privatisation around the world. Since Deutsche Post was floated in 2001, it has seen investment of £11.6 billion. That just will not be possible for Royal Mail if it remains in the public sector, but through our measures, it will become possible.
	The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) made another accusation against the Bill-it would lead to post office closures. What a cheek! Ten post offices closed in his constituency under the previous Labour Government and about 5,000 post offices were shut in total. As so many colleagues have made clear throughout this debate, Labour is the party of post office closures. This Government will not make those same errors. That is why my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary today announced our £1.34 billion investment programme for the post office network. That money will not pay for a closure programme-we will not throw money down the drain as Labour did-but it will bring a lasting change to the network and will tackle the underlying economic issues it faces. That is why the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will see, when we make our full statement on policy for the post office network shortly, a Government working as one-joined-up government is what they used to call it.

John Denham: We look forward to hearing the more detailed statement. Will the Minister confirm that his Department suffered one of the largest departmental cuts in last week's comprehensive spending review-25% of revenue and 50% of capital? Will he also confirm that the money announced today will come from that same pot of money? What other cuts that he has not yet announced will be made in BIS to finance it?

Edward Davey: Unlike the hon. Gentleman's Government, we do not wish up new pots of money left, right and centre. Of course it is in the BIS settlement.
	The Opposition made much of one point tonight. Apart from their ideological contortions over ownership, they have tried to suggest that separating Royal Mail from the Post Office will somehow be the catalyst for post office closures. Let me explain why they are wrong.
	First, a privately owned Royal Mail will not act against its own commercial interests. It will not give up valued retail space in the heart of communities the length and breadth of Britain, creating a vacuum that its competitors would gratefully fill. To think otherwise one would have to be living on Planet Consignia. Have Members heard of Planet Consignia? It is where the previous Government once tried to place Royal Mail. Well this Government, along with most people in Britain, understand the value and tradition of royalty, and will not make such daft mistakes.
	Secondly, Royal Mail has made it clear that the current long-term commercial contract between Royal Mail and post offices will continue. Only this week, the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, told me that
	"the support that the Government is giving to Post Offices Ltd should mean that the Post Office should become an even stronger retail channel for Royal Mail."
	She went on to say that it was "unthinkable" that there would not be a strong relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail in the future.
	Thirdly, if the Opposition are seriously saying the Government should write into the Bill that there should be a statutory permanent contractual relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office, they would be risking not only a legal challenge from competitors, but setting the Post Office in aspic. Do they not realise that as Royal Mail's letter volumes decline, so too will the mail business for the Post Office, so it needs to be given the opportunity to build new revenues? Do they not realise that new sources of revenue will be critical if we are to achieve a financially viable post office network?
	I have a confession. I am a postal anorak. Before having the honour of being elected to the House in 1997, I was a management consultant and I specialised in postal companies. I worked on projects for Royal Mail's equivalents in Taiwan, South Africa, Belgium and Sweden. Although I co-authored a report for the US Postal Service to put to Congress on the commercialisation and liberalisation of postal companies and markets around the world, I have to disappoint the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont); I never worked on a privatisation programme- [ Interruption. ] Regrettably. Back then, in 1997- [ Interruption. ]

Nigel Evans: Order. I cannot hear the Minister, which means that the House cannot hear him either. The Minister must be heard.

Edward Davey: In 1997, Royal Mail was a company that could hold its own with most postal administrations around the world. It needed reform and it needed investment, but it was not balance sheet insolvent or loss-making and it was not as fragile as it is today.
	Mr Deputy Speaker, what happened between 1997 and 2010? I will tell you. There was dereliction of duty by the Labour Government, on a massive scale. There were post office closures, lack of investment in Royal Mail and the pension deficit ballooned.
	This Government will not shirk our responsibilities. We will take the tough decisions. We will invest in the Post Office. We will free Royal Mail for the investment it needs. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
	 The House divided: Ayes 321, Noes 238.

Question accordingly agreed to.
	 Bill read a Second time.

Postal Services Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)) ,
	That the following provisions shall apply to the Postal Services Bill:
	 Committal
	1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
	 Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
	2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 9 December 2010.
	3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
	 Consideration and Third Reading
	4. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
	5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
	6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
	 Other proceedings
	7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.- (Mr  Newmark .)
	 Question agreed to.

Postal Services Bill (Money)

Queen's recommendation signified.
	 Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing order No. 52(1)(a)),
	That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Postal Services Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of-
	(1) expenditure in connection with the provision of benefits under the Royal Mail Pension Plan,
	(2) other expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown by virtue of the Act,
	(3) expenditure incurred by the Postal Services Commission by virtue of the Act,
	and
	(4) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided. -(Mr Newmark.)
	 Question agreed to.

Postal Services Bill (Ways and Means)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing order No. 52(1)(a)),
	That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Postal Services Bill, it is expedient to authorise-
	(1) the imposition of charges to corporation tax and stamp duty land tax in connection with the restructuring of the Royal Mail group,
	(2) the making of provision in connection with the restructuring of the Royal Mail Pension Plan,
	(3) the imposition of charges on providers of postal services and users of such services by the Office of Communications, and
	(4) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund. -(Mr Newmark.)
	 Question agreed to.

SUICIDE AND SELF-HARM IN A RECESSION

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. -(Mr Newmark.)

Madeleine Moon: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this important issue. In the past few months, the House has debated public spending cuts, job losses and the scaling back of services, but the human and personal costs are often forgotten among the facts, figures and policies, with a profound and tragic impact on individual lives and families.
	When people take their own lives and self-harm, their reasons are complex and often individual, but running through too many incidents are worries about money and debt, the loss of status and esteem often associated with unemployment, and fears about a house or job loss. The increases in personal debt, bankruptcy, homelessness and unemployment that can follow can substantially increase the incidence of suicide and self-harm. A survey for Mind this year showed that one in 10 workers had approached their GP as a direct result of the recession, mostly for depression.
	The points that I wish to make this evening are drawn from papers written by academics working in a range of institutions, including the universities of Bristol, Oxford and Manchester, which have departments focusing on suicide and its prevention. I am also indebted to the tremendous work of the Samaritans and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. The academic community draws on research on the effect of recession on cultures across Europe, as well as those in east and south-east Asia, Australia, America and elsewhere. The data go back to the great depression of the 1930s and are right up to date.
	The steps that I will urge the Government to take are recommended by leading experts in the causes and prevention of suicide and self-harm. I thank those experts not only for their support and access to their research, which has helped me to prepare for the debate, but for their dedication and commitment to preventing self-harm and saving lives.
	Self-harm includes intentional acts of self-poisoning or self-injury, irrespective of the motivation or the degree of suicidal intent. It includes suicide attempts as well as acts in which little or no suicidal intent is involved, such as when people harm themselves as a form of interpersonal communication of distress, to reduce internal tension or to punish themselves.
	The Royal College of Psychiatrists points out in its report "Self-harm, suicide and risk: helping people who self-harm" that the incidence of self-harm has continued to rise in the UK over the past 20 years. For young people, the rate here in the UK is said to be the highest in Europe. The RCP points out that
	"the needs, care, well-being and individual human dilemma of the person who harms themselves should be at the heart of what we as clinicians do. Public health policy has a vital role to play and psychiatrists must be involved and not leave these crucial political and managerial decisions to those who are not professionally equipped to appreciate the complexities of self-harm and suicide."
	It goes on to point out that
	"we must never forget that we are not just dealing with social phenomena but with people who are often at, and beyond the limit of what they can emotionally endure."
	Research has shown clearly that economic cycles give a clear indication of suicidal trends, and recession has been shown to be accompanied by an increase in suicide rates across the world. Falling stock prices, increased bankruptcies, and housing insecurities including evictions, the anticipated loss of a home and higher interest rates are all associated with increased suicide risk. Study has shown that being in debt is associated with mental health problems and suicide ideation, which contribute to someone taking their life.
	We know that the unemployed are two to three times more likely to die by suicide than people in employment. Unemployed men are particularly at risk. Unemployment can result in poorer mental health and contribute to anxiety, depression, low self-esteem and feelings of hopelessness, all of which increase the likelihood that someone will think that their life is no longer worth living.
	For those who have no history of mental health problems, there is a 70% increase in suicide risk if they are unemployed. The great depression of the '20s '30s resulted in a steep increase in male suicides. The people most at risk of suicide are those who are experiencing financial problems, those in poverty, those struggling with the rising cost of living, those who have recently lost their jobs or who are affected by a downturn in business, those who are in low-status occupations, and those with existing mental health problems. People who are self-employed or who live in single-person households, those experiencing relationship breakdowns, and those who are isolated and without strong social networks are also particularly at risk.
	Initially, people often turn to drugs and alcohol to mitigate the emotional pain and confusion that they feel. Some argue that improving access to psychological therapies is the best way of helping those who suffer from mental health problems as a result of the recession. Treatments such as cognitive behavioural therapies can benefit people, but as Professor Drinkwater of the university of Bristol has made clear,
	"unless you do something about the environment in which they live they are...likely to relapse. Without real jobs, decent housing, and adequate incomes people are going to be at risk of becoming ill again".

Andrew Stephenson: I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. In addition to what she says, I suggest that businesses have a role to play. In Nelson in my constituency, six deaths in the past six years resulted from people falling from a multi-storey car park by the Pendle Rise shopping centre. Despite that, when Pendle borough council proposed new safety measures in July last years, the car park owners refused to support such measures, saying that town hall chiefs were "wasting their money" because people with a desire to commit suicide would always "find a way". Does she agree that such an attitude from certain businessmen is completely unacceptable?

Madeleine Moon: Anyone who can take any step to turn someone away for that brief moment in which they might think again should do so. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that whatever barriers are needed in that car park should be in place, and I thank him for his intervention.
	I would direct the Minister to research carried out by Professor David Gunnell et al on the effect of the economic crisis in east and south-east Asia in the 1990s, to recent work by Professor Keith Hawton, David Platt and Camilla Haw, and to the work of Professor Purkis and the steps taken in Australia to deal with, and indeed to reduce, suicide in a recession.
	There is broad agreement in academia, psychiatry and mental health charities on what steps need to be taken to reduce suicide and the effect of a recession on suicide and self-harm rates. Suicide prevention must remain a priority of public health policy in all countries in the UK. There should be structures at national, regional and local level and mechanisms for the flow of information, evaluation and best practice in reducing suicide and self-harm. That best practice must be known, shared and implemented. It is essential that research into what works and why people are taking their own lives be funded.
	The current national suicide prevention strategy for England is coming to an end. I urge the Government to ensure that this work continues to be funded and taken forward. Overseeing and administering the strategy, including issuing annual reports, costs very little, but the potential cost-effectiveness of continuing it is enormous. It is important that the strategy should help to ensure a continued focus on all those working in the field. The Samaritans and the Royal College of Psychiatrists stress the need for all people attending accident and emergency departments, as well as those admitted to hospital following incidents of self-harm or attempted suicide, to be referred to trained mental health professionals and sources of help. It is sad to say that many people-especially those who self-harm-are seen as attention-seeking, and do not get the help and support that they need. They do not get onward referrals, and instead return again and again. The risk of their self-harming becoming suicide ideation and suicide is very high. It is critical to ensure that people receive the help and support that they need, once they take that first step of approaching A and E.
	Mental health needs in general, and a specific strategy to prevent suicide and self-harm in particular, should form a central part of the upcoming White Paper on public health. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that will be the case. In addition to those facing unemployment and debt, or relationship problems, the needs of those at particular risk-they include asylum seekers, those in minority ethnic groups, those in institutional care, sexual minorities, veterans and those bereaved by suicide-should be actively addressed as part of the strategy.
	I call on the Government to establish a UK-wide forum to bring together agencies from the four nations that are involved in suicide prevention policy, research and practice, to help us formulate a way forward through the difficult years ahead. The Departments responsible for public health in each of the four Administrations must lead a cross-departmental strategy to raise awareness of self-harm and ensure that front-line staff in education, social work, prisons, Jobcentre Plus, the police and other relevant agencies receive appropriate training in dealing with self-harm and those at risk of suicide.
	Included in such a strategy should be the monitoring of harmful internet sites that encourage or incite suicide and self-harm. I would like to pay my personal thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) for her help in taking that issue forward in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. However, we now urgently need to address the legal status of those sites on a European level, so that we can increase our control over them and prevent them from reaching out and damaging the lives of people across the UK. It is important that Government websites, including the NHS Direct and Department of Health sites, should include authoritative, accessible and user-friendly information on the help and support available both to those who self-harm or who are contemplating taking their own lives, and to their friends and their family.
	The NHS has a guide, entitled "Help is at Hand: A resource for people bereaved by suicide and other sudden, traumatic death". That excellent guide, which could possibly be updated and reviewed, gives advice for those who are suddenly bereaved. It is an excellent example of the kind of information that should be available. Unfortunately, not enough front-line staff know about it, so the information is not getting to those who need it. Services coming into contact with those who have been bereaved by suicide should know about the document and be able to distribute it. It is vital to ensure that GPs' surgeries, the police, social workers and coroners have access to it, and that families receive it.
	Professors Gunnell, Platt and Hawton, in an article recently published in the  British Medical Journal, stress the importance of social policy measures to create new jobs, of adequate welfare benefits for unemployed people, and of the provision of alternatives to early entry into the labour market, especially for young people, such as increasing the number of university places. It is important to give people a sense of hope. They also argue that employers and trade unions must be mindful of the potential risk to mental health of redundancy, and that workers should be given the help and support that they need.
	I was pleased by the help and support that I received from the former Member for South Dorset to ensure that front-line Jobcentre Plus staff had access to support and training to give them an understanding of mental health needs, and of the risk to the mental health and emotional stability of those who had newly been made redundant or become unemployed. I should like to know whether that help, support and training will continue to be available to Jobcentre Plus staff.
	In concluding my remarks, I want to stress that most people who lose their jobs, their homes or their businesses in a recession do not commit suicide or self-harm, but we must be aware of the increased risk in the current economic climate. This must be addressed by the Government. I am aware that new figures are coming out tomorrow, and I look forward to seeing whether the tremendous reduction in suicides in this country is continuing. I fear that perhaps it is not.
	I also encourage the Government to enter discussions with the media on the reporting of suicides, to prevent the potential for social contagion. In the past few years, many of the national newspapers have become much more aware of what they are doing when they report such cases. I do not wish to criticise, but it is important, in a recession, that we do not exaggerate or even raise the link between the loss of a job and a death. I believe that the Government could take a lead in that area.
	I would also ask all Ministers, when looking at policy, to bear in mind the emotional devastation and exhaustion that drives a person to suicide, and the enormous loss for friends and family, and to avoid trivialising that pain and despair as the Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) did in a recent article on train delays. I do not want to see that repeated.
	It has been my aim in this debate to raise awareness, and to concentrate focus across government on the potential consequences of policy decisions if they are not mitigated by the help and support recommended by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, leading academic researchers and voluntary agencies working in this field. Finally, I invite the Minister to attend a meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on suicide and self-harm prevention, to discuss what the Government are going to do to reduce suicide and self-harm, so that we can engage and work together to reduce the incidence of such terrible loss and damage.

Paul Burstow: I congratulate the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) on securing the debate. I want to pay tribute to her, and to thank her for the work that she does in leading the all-party group on suicide and self-harm prevention. Her name sticks in my mind because, when I first became a Minister, I answered many questions that she had tabled on these issues. When I saw that she had secured this debate, I was conscious that she had been pursuing this matter vigorously and diligently for many a year. She brings that important issue to the House's attention tonight. The fact that she has constituency experience of the matter, given the tragedies that have taken place there in recent years, lends added weight to her argument.
	The hon. Lady was right to bring us back to the personal stories behind the statistics, and to recognise that, while strategies are important, they offer little consolation to those who are affected personally and directly by suicide and self-harm. She rightly paid tribute to the work of the Samaritans and other organisations. She was also right to highlight the need to share best practice and research; I entirely subscribe to that view.
	There is plenty of evidence across the world that in times of recession and high unemployment, rates of mental illness and suicide tend to rise. In this country, Office for National Statistics figures tell us that suicides rose 6% between 2007 and 2008 when the recession began to bite. Tomorrow, as the hon. Lady said, the Department of Health publishes its "Mortality Monitoring Bulletin", updated to include the data for 2009. I am unable to share it with the House now, but it will be in the public domain then. This will include new information on suicide rates, giving us the full picture of how the course of the recession affected the nation's public health. The figures illustrate in the most dramatic way the human tragedies that took place in the economic downturn.
	We now need to ensure that economic recovery is matched by psychological recovery from a long and painful recession. The 2010 Legatum Institute's report, published earlier this week, showed that there is plenty of work to do. It gave a salutary warning that in terms of happiness and the general well-being of our fellow citizens, the UK is sorely lacking compared with other countries. In our services, too, across society, we have to ensure that we start valuing GWB, or general well-being, as highly as we do GDP. Specifically, as the hon. Lady argues, we must do everything we can to return to the pattern of declining suicide rates that we saw for most of the last decade.
	To help us do so, I can first confirm for the hon. Lady that we will publish a new suicide prevention strategy in the new year. As the old strategy comes to an end, we need to update it and make sure that it is fit for purpose. We will certainly take into account the points she has made. I will want to look at the studies to which she referred and ensure that suicide prevention is referenced in the forthcoming mental health strategy, too.
	The new prevention strategy for suicide will include new measures, particularly those to support high-risk groups. I will ask officials to discuss the hon. Lady's suggestion of how best to collaborate with the devolved Administrations to ensure that we share learning and best practice across the countries. The strategy will also look at how we can restrict access to some of the methods people use to self-harm or commit suicide. The hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), who talked about a particular constituency example, illustrates why we need to erect barriers, quite literally, to deal with suicide hotspots. I am shocked and appalled by the attitude that the business in his constituency adopted to that necessary investment in prevention. The strategy will also involve working with all forms of media to ensure that we get responsible reporting to prevent copycat suicides.
	Let me say something about the issues raised about the internet and how it can be used to promote suicide and provide information about methods. There is now greater clarity in the law. Section 59 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 simplified and modernised the law on encouraging or assisting suicide by online means. The Government continue to work with internet service providers through the UK Council for Child Internet Safety to remove harmful or illegal content. We continue to work with search engine providers, encouraging them to link only to appropriate, supportive websites when somebody uses "suicide" as a search term.
	There is clearly a difficulty in how to strike the balance correctly, which does not really lend itself to arbitrary Government action. Banning all discussions and content on suicides from sites popular with young people risks driving them to parts of the internet that are far less safe and certainly not moderated, so more harm could be done. There is a need to update existing guidance, and we plan to publish updated guidance for technology providers to keep children safe online. We expect internet providers to follow that advice and remove harmful content as quickly as possible. I will certainly look at the hon. Lady's points about the provision of helpful advice on the Department of Health and associated websites.

Andrew Percy: If the organisations that we are trying to get to remove content refuse to do so, will the Minister name and shame them?

Paul Burstow: I will certainly consider that, and we will discuss with colleagues across Government the approach and tone we should adopt with ISPs.
	In reducing suicides, we have a specific focus on the health service, but we need a much broader programme of work across Government to improve general well-being while ensuring that the right services are in place for people who experience mental illness.
	Everything that we know about the pattern of suicide rates demands a twin-track approach covering both clinical and societal issues. On the clinical side, we will do more to ensure that the NHS gives people the support that they need, and a new outcomes framework should make clear that the NHS must give mental health services the same priority as physical health services. There should be no difference in the esteem that we attach to those services. That approach will help us to shift cultures and priorities, ensuring that accident and emergency and hospital staff are trained to deal with self-harm or other indications of poor mental health, and are able to refer patients to the appropriate services rather than creating the revolving door to which the hon. Lady referred. GPs also need to be properly trained to help them to identify those at risk of suicide, and to provide appropriate drug treatment and psychological support in line with National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines.
	The hon. Lady was right to say that talking therapies are a critical part of the onward journey for those at risk. In 2009, the last Government initiated the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme. Where they exist, IAPT services work extremely well, but coverage around the country is still patchy. Earlier this year, I was able to announce additional investment of £70 million in the current financial year to ensure that we could continue the roll-out of IAPT, in order to deliver a commitment in the coalition programme. I am pleased that the Chancellor confirmed last week that we are now committed to investing more additional resources to allow the continuing expansion of IAPT up to 2014, including its extension to cover people of all ages rather than just those of working age.
	However, we must not over-medicalise what is also a social and cultural issue. The Foresight report from the Office of Science shows that mental health problems are closely linked to a range of social problems. Debt and unemployment are key triggers for suicide, as are social isolation, family breakdown and substance misuse. Those are best addressed and best prevented in the community, not in the clinic. In developing our new mental health strategy, we will also consider how we can change cultures and develop resilience and relationships in communities to prevent mental illness and suicides.
	We will, for instance, target those with alcohol or drug problems, and create better links between treatment services and mental health services. We will support vulnerable families by providing more health visitors and family nurse partnerships to give children the stable upbringings that provide a basis for good mental health in later life. We will also address the stigma associated with mental illness. It is that stigma-that reluctance to express emotions and accept help, advice and support, especially among men-that can be such a serious cause of the problems in our mental health services and, ultimately, even a cause of suicides. We also need to harness the expertise and experience of the third sector and voluntary groups to create local grass-roots plans and action to support better public mental health.
	One of the biggest priorities will be returning more people with mental health problems to employment. We know that long-term unemployment has a hugely corrosive effect on a person's mental health. Those who are unemployed for an extended period are 35 times more likely to commit suicide than those in stable employment. The sad legacy of the last decade has been the huge rise in the number of people trapped on benefits, along with all the damage that that does to a person's self-esteem and self-worth.
	We will build on the good links that have been established in some areas between IAPT and employment services. Many primary care trusts are already making connections with their local Jobcentre Plus, and I want to ensure that such relationships are formed in all IAPT centres as the roll-out continues. However, we also need businesses and organisations to invest in the good mental health of their staff, particularly during times of anxiety and change. Research shows that employers who invest in staff well-being receive a ninefold return on their investment in terms of increased productivity and reduced sickness absence. We want to drive that message home in the context of the employers' occupational health responsibilities.
	The human effect of dealing with the deficit crisis is not something that the Government can take lightly. I know that many in the public sector will be feeling anxious and concerned as a result of the spending review, and that demands the utmost vigilance from us in our support for people's mental health in the months and years ahead. We are committed to mending the psychological as well as the economic scars of the past recession, improving mental health services, promoting greater community resilience to mental illness, and doing much more to help unemployed people regain their confidence and return to work.
	I am grateful to the hon. Lady for securing the debate, and for the leadership that she provides in this regard. I hope that we shall be able to deliver the changes that we all want to see, and ensure that we have good-quality mental health in this country.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 House adjourned.